Review, Measurements, and Questions: Porsche Macan Bose Audio

[hardisj]

Find also your MMM discrepancy weird though as it usually matched the averages of individual sweeps much better, could you maybe post a screenshot of your REW RTA settings?

Usually only the case below about 300-400Hz.

 

[ernestcarl]

Side note: Surround mode is horrible. It sounds like a poorly executed phase based matrix up mixer. It further screws up the tonality, and feels like you're in a vague soup of boomy sound.

I wonder, is it possible to actually play "true" 5.1 mch tracks here instead of just upmixing stereo music to "surround"?

 

[hardisj]

What are your thoughts and experiences on measuring the response of car audio systems? I've seen some papers outline a system of measurement using KEMAR heads / HRTFs. Unfortunately I do not have access to such equipment.

HRTFs are mostly important for spatial aspects. Especially in those systems featuring surround-sound type decoding. I saw a study that some grad students did using a Dyn Audio system in a Volvo that was pretty interesting but don't remember much about it other than they focused on ITD and IACC.

This gets back to the point of measuring with you in the seat vs not in the seat. I have used binuaral mics with me wearing them and sitting in the MLP. But that's only helped me identify issues that I had no chance of fixing. Such as side window reflections causing a peak or null. IMHO, for the average hobbyist, there is zero point in using anything other than the standard MMM for car audio.

I am wondering what causes the discrepancy between the moving mic averages and the averaged sine sweeps. Is it correct to assume that the MMM is more representative of the overall response that I hear?

What is the stimulus? And how are you measuring?

Sweeps use a different stimulus than RTA. The former uses a log sweep; the latter should be using pink noise (or pseudo pink noise). Also, make sure that if you are using pink noise that you are measuring the sample sample rate as you are outputting. Check the MLS (or FFT length). REW does this automatically when you use it to generate the signal, but if you are using a test disc with pink noise, you'll need to get the FFT length and make sure you tell REW to measure at this same rate.

If you were to measure the response of a car system, what would you do?

For a beginner, this is what I recommend:
1) Have REW generate Pseudo Pink Noise ("Pseudo PN", is what they call it in the generator tab, IIRC).
2) Set MLS or FFT length to 64k (good overlap between enough averaging for bass and treble).
3) Set "Averages" to 32. That's a decent number.
4) Use the MMM. Move the mic around the headspace area of the MLP.
*This is the tricky part; if you use a house curve then sit in the back seat and wave the mic around. If you don't, then it might be easier to sit in the driver's seat and measure with the mic up. You will have to figure out what to adjust based on what you hear because you won't have a house curve to go by. My video I linked earlier discusses this.
5) Analyze the results


Now, you can do the above by individual drive unit, side (left vs right) or combined. Understand that these will all yield different results because of comb filtering effects. Even if you get both left and right sides matched *exactly the same* individually, the combined result will not be the sum; it will be some variation thanks to the cabin. I know it might not make sense. But do it and you'll see.

The left side response you posted makes perfect sense. You have the tell-tale "nearside null" (as I call it) at about 80Hz. Every car has this unless there is something very different about the installation. It's a modal issue you can do absolutely nothing about. It is why I recommend to cross the subwoofer up higher than most prefer because it fills in the null and actually provides "bass up front", contrary to what you would otherwise believe. Many in car audio try to run their midbass down as low at 50Hz to help make the bass more "up front" but that only serves to make the null more noticeable and push the bass toward the subwoofer in the trunk. I also made a video about that linked below.

 

[anmpr1]

Hey y'all. I recently completed a large set of measurements of the Bose sound system in the Porsche Macan. What are your thoughts and experiences on measuring the response of car audio systems?

Thoughts? On sounds comping from a Porsche? Macan is a utility thing. How much can you stuff in to it? Panamera is a high performance a luxury sedan. So audio is probably important. If you can afford Panamera, you can afford the Burmester upgrade. 718 and 911? Forgo the stereo, because you'll want to listen to the engine in order to determine shift points.

From a marketing standpoint, I'm surprised that Porsche has partnered with Bose. The Bose name is decidedly plebeian for such an exclusive brand. In any case, the most important two items for car stereo, at least to me, are, 1) can you center the stereo image at the driver's position (front, back, side to side) and 2) are there any rattles in the dash? Actually, there is a 3rd--can you easily adjust the sound with a knob, or do you have to navigate through a touch screen menu tree, making the whole thing essentially unergonomic and too frustrating to deal with? From sitting at stop lights, one other important factor, at least for some, seems to be whether one can shake the pavement with their woofers.

 

[Asinus]

I have played with car audio a fair amount. The biggest problem I have had is the noise floor of 70db. Too much bass at stops and low speeds, too much at higher, fatigue from higher listening levels to drown out the background.

In a "premium" preinstalled system there will be dynamic EQ, the amp will receive CAN signals with the speed or RPMs and it will increase a bass shelf while going fast and flatten it up while still/low speeds. In newer systems they even use a mic to get some feedback to the amp and adjust the EQ.

That makes DIY automotive audio even harder, even if you get the CAN "dictionary" for the maker, a lot of them are locking the bus because infotainment was the entry point to hacking other critical systems some years ago.

 

[echopraxia]

Coincidentally, I’ve owned a Porsche Macan with the default Bose sound system as well. My only disagreement is I would say it sounds “pretty bad” rather than “okay”, but I suppose that’s relative. The treble is physically painful to me most of the time. The Bose system for the Porsche Taycan system sounded a bit better but still is pretty bad, so it doesn’t have much if anything to do with the price of the Macan IMO.

On the opposite end of the price and performance spectrum is the new Toyota Venza with the JBL audio. One of the best car car sound systems I’ve heard. Strangely, the Toyota Prius Prime with JBL sounds pretty bad, so whatever makes the Venza sound so great doesn’t seem to be consistent across all models.

A lot of Lexus’s with Mark Levinson sound quite good. And Audi A8/Q8 are some of the best car audio I’ve heard, though I’ve heard good things about Revel/Lincoln and other brands that I haven’t had a chance to try.

 

[GXAlan]

The tweeters are the main problem. I had a Cayenne with the Bose setup that I replaced with JBL/Harman drivers that were pulled from a Ferrari. The tweeter visually just looked like the basic BMW Harman tweeter.

The magic was that the physical plastic mount as well as the 2-pin quick-connector were identical, making it a true plug and play setup. In linear mode, I did not feel as if I needed to do anything additional tuning suggesting that the sensitivity was close enough.

That said, the base BMW 5-/6- series non Harman Kardon branded setup is better than that Cayenne and the BMW Harman Kardon setup is better yet. Both are incredibly enjoyable and work because they do NOT try to generate exaggerated bass. The HK setup does really well with IMD but the standard setup is embarrassingly good. (In that it sounds so pleasant even against well tuned home systems).

I have been told that while engineering a good sound system for a car is harder, the Harman group has that down to a science that it is easier to get results since you can predict where the driver sits, have full DSP control and often can collaborate with the car manufacturer for some improvements or design changes. A problem still lies with the car manufacturer choosing its House curve and the attention to detail is typically only on the mid and upper level models.

(Mark Levinson in a ES350 is different than ML in a LS500 as is Harman Kardon in the 3- series versus the 5- series).

 

[andreasmaaan]

The hard part; the part that will never be close to home audio is the other stuff. Imaging, focus, width, depth

Which measurements do you use to diagnose and correct problems in each of these areas, in your experience?

 

[hardisj]

Which measurements do you use to diagnose and correct problems in each of these areas, in your experience?

Imaging and focus are a function of time and response matching. Time delay is pretty easy to set up: you can do it by ear, by physical distance measurement or by IR matching. The latter two are variations of difficulty/precision. Physical distance gets you "pretty much there" by all accounts. I even have a webpage that takes the guesswork out of it; just punch in your tape-measured distances and enter them to my site and you're done:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/timedelaycalc/

IR is more complex to setup the hardware and measure/analyze, but if you know what you are doing here, this is pretty simple and more precise.


Response matching is back to the RTA and/or spectrum response matching between left and right sides.


But, even then, once everything is perfect, you still have the fact that the drivers are all on separate planes, at different angles (elevation and azimuth) and that rears its head in terms of phase alignment. You may have the IR matched and the response matched exactly between two sides... and still be off 15° between left/right midrange. Or more typical, be out of phase by 45° at the crossover point between the midbass and midrange, while the acoustical crossover slopes and time are aligned exactly as you want in their absolute state... but their relative phase is out enough to cause headaches that you can't fix without an all-pass filter.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[echopraxia]

Macan is a utility thing. How much can you stuff in to it? Panamera is a high performance a luxury sedan. So audio is probably important. If you can afford Panamera, you can afford the Burmester upgrade.

Perhaps, but it all adds up — especially with Porsche, where essential options (that almost everyone will want) often add 20-30% to the listed MSRP price. Sure, you can get a Porsche for $X MSRP, but if you want it to come installed with seats and a steering wheel, it will cost you extra (JK, but this feels not far from the truth).

So the ~$8k Porsche charges for the Burmester means an extra 5-10% added to the price (even for the Panamera/Taycan), which is not trivial.

For example, in my area I very rarely see any models at the dealer with the Burmester option. As it turns out, audiophiles are rare, and many people would rather pay more for a prestige badge or aesthetic package (e.g. nonfunctional carbon fiber accents etc), than an upgraded sound system. So that’s what I see often reflected in the preconfigured models arriving at dealers.

Similarly, while I don’t see base models show up, I also don’t really see many fully optioned models show up around here. There’s always some package missing, whether it be Burmester or the extra self-driving features packages, or the thermal night vision packages. This applies to even the most expensive Porsche models, so I think this discounts the hypothesis that anyone buying a Porsche wants it fully optioned by default (even though as an audiophile, I obviously agree with you that it makes no sense to buy e.g. a Panamera or Taycan without the audio upgrade package).

 

[andreasmaaan]

And @hardisj what in your experience are the optimal number of speakers and locations in a typical, say, sedan.

(Mostly interested in your personal opinion/experience here )

 

[hardisj]

And @hardisj what in your experience are the optimal number of speakers and locations in a typical, say, sedan.

(Mostly interested in your personal opinion/experience here )

It depends. Are you going for "space" or 2-channel hi-fi? They are different. The former, TO ME, is gimmicky... like 3-D glasses in the movies. Personal preference.

I've heard 2-way systems with a subwoofer that sound great. I've heard 3-way that sound great. Just depends on the car and install. I've had all sorts of installs.

This is my current system:
https://www.caraudiojunkies.com/showthread.php?3637-2019-Honda-Civic-Hatchback-Sport

 

[anmpr1]

Perhaps, but it all adds up — especially with Porsche, where essential options (that almost everyone will want) often add 20-30% to the listed MSRP price.

To their credit, Porsche does offer 'badge deletion' as a free option. But I'm guessing that most owners want most non-owners to know that they are behind a GT2.

I personally don't understand the car audio thing. EQ and loudness have to vary with speed (road noise), and program material. At home on my main system I set the volume and pretty much forget it. In front of my PC I often adjust EQ (using Music Bee) depending. I don't do much listening in the car, but when it's talk or news, often I use different tone than with music settings.

I don't see car audio measurements/settings as a 'one size fits all' solution. And measurements taken with the car parked don't seem to offer much in the way of helpfulness in a real world driving situation. But I could be totally wrong about it.

 

[Willem]

I may be the odd one out here but I do not particularly care for cars or driving, nor do I see much point in an ambitious car audio system given the cramped acoustic environment and the noisy conditions. So when we bought our last car (a beautifully elegant twenty year old low mileage Peugeot 406 2 litre automatic) I replaced the old radio/cassette player with a modern Pioneer DAB+ digital radio with bluetooth so we have much better reception than FM and can also play our own music. And that was it as far as I am concerned. I thought about replacing the inbuilt JBL speakers but once I had replaced the radio with the better modern one I concluded that the speakers were not that bad after all. I also noticed that the DAB+ digital reception was better than BT from our phones. But in the end, traffic being what it is I really have to pay attention to the road and all the loonies out there. I am 67 and thus far I have managed over a life time of driving to avoid any accident, or any ticket. I would like to keep it that way - driving is not a game but deadly serious.

 

[hardisj]

I don't really think this is the thread to debate the merits of car audio. Seems the OP is asking the question about his system; not whether he should have a system.

 

[Ron Texas]

Get a loud exhaust, open the windows and forget the sound system.

 

[Timbo2]

Nice work! First review of its kind that I've seen

Maybe the surround mode would sound better? Does it include upmixing? Car systems have to deal with a lot of crosstalk and comb filtering.

Not sure what accounts for the MMM results other than your sweep pattern.

@hardisj Do you have an opinion?

Savage Geese has started to standardized testing on many of its reviews where it has enough time for the analysis to be done. The nice things is the plots are standardized. Given this isn't the primary focus of the channel it seems to me a reasonable mix of objective and subjective analysis,

https://www.savagegeese.com/reviews/fine-print-on-car-audio

I skimmed their Macan review, but I don't think they were able run their audio tests on it.

 

[hardisj]

Get a loud exhaust, open the windows and forget the sound system.

*checks name, sees "Texas", understands post*

 

[alanca3]

I wonder, is it possible to actually play "true" 5.1 mch tracks here instead of just upmixing stereo music to "surround"?

Yes, you can. I have an SD card with a bunch of 5.1 albums that I listen to occasionally. True 5.1 sounds impressive in the car.

Perhaps, but it all adds up — especially with Porsche, where essential options (that almost everyone will want) often add 20-30% to the listed MSRP price. Sure, you can get a Porsche for $X MSRP, but if you want it to come installed with seats and a steering wheel, it will cost you extra (JK, but this feels not far from the truth).

So the ~$8k Porsche charges for the Burmester means an extra 5-10% added to the price (even for the Panamera/Taycan), which is not trivial.

For example, in my area I very rarely see any models at the dealer with the Burmester option. As it turns out, audiophiles are rare, and many people would rather pay more for a prestige badge or aesthetic package (e.g. nonfunctional carbon fiber accents etc), than an upgraded sound system. So that’s what I see often reflected in the preconfigured models arriving at dealers.

Similarly, while I don’t see base models show up, I also don’t really see many fully optioned models show up around here. There’s always some package missing, whether it be Burmester or the extra self-driving features packages, or the thermal night vision packages. This applies to even the most expensive Porsche models, so I think this discounts the hypothesis that anyone buying a Porsche wants it fully optioned by default (even though as an audiophile, I obviously agree with you that it makes no sense to buy e.g. a Panamera or Taycan without the audio upgrade package).

My thoughts exactly. I am the only person I know who would sacrifice PASM, Entry & Drive, SportChrono, Premium Package, etc just to get the Burmester. Our dealership also never seems to have a fully optioned car, but I think that's understandable. That option list would be around 60K for a Panamera or 911. Not many in Louisiana would be interested I think.

HRTFs are mostly important for spatial aspects. Especially in those systems featuring surround-sound type decoding. I saw a study that some grad students did using a Dyn Audio system in a Volvo that was pretty interesting but don't remember much about it other than they focused on ITD and IACC.

This gets back to the point of measuring with you in the seat vs not in the seat. I have used binuaral mics with me wearing them and sitting in the MLP. But that's only helped me identify issues that I had no chance of fixing. Such as side window reflections causing a peak or null. IMHO, for the average hobbyist, there is zero point in using anything other than the standard MMM for car audio.





What is the stimulus? And how are you measuring?

Sweeps use a different stimulus than RTA. The former uses a log sweep; the latter should be using pink noise (or pseudo pink noise). Also, make sure that if you are using pink noise that you are measuring the sample sample rate as you are outputting. Check the MLS (or FFT length). REW does this automatically when you use it to generate the signal, but if you are using a test disc with pink noise, you'll need to get the FFT length and make sure you tell REW to measure at this same rate.





For a beginner, this is what I recommend:
1) Have REW generate Pseudo Pink Noise ("Pseudo PN", is what they call it in the generator tab, IIRC).
2) Set MLS or FFT length to 64k (good overlap between enough averaging for bass and treble).
3) Set "Averages" to 32. That's a decent number.
4) Use the MMM. Move the mic around the headspace area of the MLP.
*This is the tricky part; if you use a house curve then sit in the back seat and wave the mic around. If you don't, then it might be easier to sit in the driver's seat and measure with the mic up. You will have to figure out what to adjust based on what you hear because you won't have a house curve to go by. My video I linked earlier discusses this.
5) Analyze the results


Now, you can do the above by individual drive unit, side (left vs right) or combined. Understand that these will all yield different results because of comb filtering effects. Even if you get both left and right sides matched *exactly the same* individually, the combined result will not be the sum; it will be some variation thanks to the cabin. I know it might not make sense. But do it and you'll see.

The left side response you posted makes perfect sense. You have the tell-tale "nearside null" (as I call it) at about 80Hz. Every car has this unless there is something very different about the installation. It's a modal issue you can do absolutely nothing about. It is why I recommend to cross the subwoofer up higher than most prefer because it fills in the null and actually provides "bass up front", contrary to what you would otherwise believe. Many in car audio try to run their midbass down as low at 50Hz to help make the bass more "up front" but that only serves to make the null more noticeable and push the bass toward the subwoofer in the trunk. I also made a video about that linked below.

Thanks for the insight. For my MMM, I used Pink Periodic 64k for stimulus. RTA settings were: infinite average, Rectangular window with 50% overlap, spectrum w/o smoothing.

 

[alanca3]

Nice review! I had a Macan S with the Bose system a few weeks ago as a loaner and your impressions match mine exactly. Exaggerated peaky bass with rolled off subbass, weirdly harsh, glaring, and unnatural lower treble, and a generally scooped sound. I’m curious as to whether you have any measurements with linear mode being on? Would be nice to quantify exactly what it does to the frequency response.
IMO Porsche’s sound systems are pretty underwhelming in general, and one of the brand’s biggest sore spots. Overall, I would describe the sound system in the Macan as acceptable but not particularly high fidelity. It was better than the Bose system in my 911 though. Additionally, I rented a Cayman before and the base system in that was absolutely unacceptable.
On the other hand I find BMW does a pretty good job with both the base US (this is called the Hi-Fi option outside of US) and Harman Kardon options.

Interesting that you mention the BMW Base Hi-Fi option for the US. I came from an F30 328xi with that audio spec. Other than the lack of bass and limited volume, I like it more than the Bose system. A good example of well thought placement / design.

Also interesting about the Bose being worse off in a 911 than a Macan. When my mother went from the Cayenne to the Panamera she remarked that the stereo didn't sound quite as good.

Side note: this morning I went to drop off the car for service. I was excited to get a loaner car (never gotten that before). They pulled up a slick 2020 Macan S and were about to hand me the keys. Then the SA sees my license and says "Oh....Sorry....You have to be 25 to get a loaner." It stung watching them drive the car back to the lot :/