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Dirac Live Bass Management?

Vasr

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So far, MiniDSP is selling products cheaper than USD 1500 like the SHD power amp. If what you say is true, then they will have eventually to create a new line of high end products as opposed to DIY DSP on the other lines. But if MiniDSP can’t sell it, then it is also a problem for DIRAC.

Dirac's current pricing model is not beneficial to boutique, low volume, low price vendors because of the disproportionate licensing costs. People complain about HDMI licensing costs making it bad for small manufacturers. This is orders of magnitude more. Sure, you can say that Dirac is a big selling point but unless miniDSP can leverage that into a much higher volume product (they just don't have the marketing resources/channels for it) or raise the prices significantly, their RoI will be way too low because of the licensing costs. So they will remain a niche, low return company. Which might not be bad at all for segments of consumers. SHD is a great niche and satisfies many users.

DLBC as a separate license makes it much worse for miniDSP and so I don't see how that can make it into current miniDSP products.

Dirac's business model doesn't depend primarily on the miniDSPs. It is getting the big brand deals - NAD, Arcam, etc., that have the pricing power for high-end products and have more total volume of Dirac units sold that makes Dirac's business model strong. If miniDSP were to compete with comparable high-end products at lower prices and with Dirac, it would make it difficult for Dirac to command a good price with the high-end brands. So, it is better for Dirac (from their perspective) for miniDSP to stay a low volume, niche player to not disrupt their bread and butter. Of course, this would not be their public narrative for obvious reasons.
 

devteam

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It sounds like I'll just bow out of this thread as unfortunately my effort to try to clarify a simple point isn't being clear enough and somehow opening new comments.. :) I'll just reply with some simple facts in point forms hoping to clarify some basics facts:
a) My initial take and involvement was to clarify: "There isn't any hardware limitation on an SHD (or other miniDSP Dirac platform) to run DLBC. That's a firmware update and not a technical limitation.". I don't believe I stated: "SHD will get DLBC right now for free". You're correct that it wouldn't make sense, and sorry to hear that it was understood this way.. As per our company policy we only talk of feature once they are ready, specifically for this type of situation.. :)
b) DLBC is a paid option from Dirac. We can't comment as to why it's available for free on other products, maybe best to contact Dirac about it so they can clarify? My guess is that it's bulked up in the high cost of these products. Pricing of DLBC can be found from here: https://live.dirac.com/home-audio/
c) As for the comment that adding new features wouldn't make sense from ROI point of view, I respectfully disagree. :) We keep adding/developing new features to improve our products all the time as part of the standard product life cycle. Take the Roon Ready certification we're finalizing, we get no cents from Roon for all the engineering required yet that doesn't mean it's not making sense for our customers.. :) The same applies to Tidal/Qobuz/high res.. People are free to choose if they want to pay for that service, we don't see the point to jack up the price to give DLBC for free..
 

phoenixdogfan

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Same as above, I can't see why we'd ever make such statement...:confused: especially knowing it's our friends @ Dirac, we keep working on products behind the scenes.. miniDSP has quite few Dirac platforms by now.. So we just rotate engineering efforts, that's all.. :)

Does there exist any limitation on the processing power of the DDRC 24 unit which would render it unable to accept the Live Bass Management upgrade? Not asking if it's on the immediate agenda, just if it's possible for it to be done for that unit.
 

stevenswall

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Can anyone confirm if Dirac Live Bass Management/Control works with the SHD/DDRC24 on all four channels for a 2.2 system?

Searching and reading and all I'm seeing is "buy it and install Dirac and find out."
 

samysound

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Can anyone confirm if Dirac Live Bass Management/Control works with the SHD/DDRC24 on all four channels for a 2.2 system?

Searching and reading and all I'm seeing is "buy it and install Dirac and find out."
Hi
No Dirac bass control available from minidisc as of yet. The SHD is compatible with Dirac 3 otherwise but only two channels of Dirac
 

freedomgli

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Can anyone confirm if Dirac Live Bass Management/Control works with the SHD/DDRC24 on all four channels for a 2.2 system?

Searching and reading and all I'm seeing is "buy it and install Dirac and find out."
miniDSP has not made Dirac Live Bass Control available yet on any of its products. The only hardware with DLBC capability today is listed on the Dirac website or on the respective hardware manufacturers’ website.

“StormAudio, JBL Synthesis and some Audio Control it is included.

For Arcam, Audio Control Concert XR-4, Focal Astral 16 and Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 you can get it as an add-on below.”

https://live.dirac.com/features/
https://live.dirac.com/home-audio/
 

Vasr

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I am trying hard to figure out how much of DLBC is hype and what is real especially for the price. The marketing blurb says

Dirac Live Bass Control aggregates measurement and location data from each subwoofer as well as the main speakers to determine how a system’s bass is distributed throughout the room. It then identifies gaps in the sound waves and distributes bass evenly across the room. The feature also corrects the low-frequency sound waves produced by the speaker pair, so the bass produced by each speaker is in sync with the system.

Granted the above is sheer market speak and prone to hyperbole. It is starting to sound like PS Audio speak to me.

What exactly does it do?

Let us take a single sub upgrade for $350 over Dirac Live. What do you actually get for this price of admission?

Distributed throughout the room. Does it actually use measurements at more positions than the Dirac Live measurements? Or is it just hyperbole based on the fact that low frequencies are not very directional? No EQ system can change the dispersion pattern of a speaker. Either you have localized nulls ("gaps in the soundwaves") whose correction wouldn't fix it everywhere to "distribute bass evenly throughout the room". Or you have a global null from reflections (back reflection and front propagation being out of phase). There is nothing room eq can do for this for a given position of the sub. Does DLBC detect this (which is easy to do) and suggest you move the sub? Or tell you where to move the sub? What exactly is the magic that it makes happen here?

The bass produced by each speaker is in sync. This seems to apply to the crossover region where there is an overlap between the sub and another speaker. Everywhere else Dirac Live already does what is needed to EQ each speaker separately. How is this different from just measuring and applying EQ over each crossed over pair. You can do this manually right now with a downstream crossover (even the dumbest kind) and using Dirac Live.

I suppose it could automatically choose the crossover frequency and the slope based on measurements. This would be a huge benefit over doing this manually. But does it actually do this? Do the supported hardware allow this for each speaker/sub pair? Or is it for a pair of speakers and sub in which case, it isn't that much better off from a manual configuration as it isn't optimal for both? Do all units that support DLBC allow for the same flexibility?

What exactly does it do better than using Dirac Live over a downstream crossover management such as in the miniDSPs.

Shouldn't people be asking what they are really getting before a huge discussion of how and where to get it and rushing like lemmings to get one? ;)

I have left out the multi-sub for now so as not to complicate understanding of what it actually does with a single sub for the hefty single sub fee.
 

stevenswall

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Dang. Looks like it's only possible for a $4000+ entry price. I have no problem paying hundreds for their software. Just can't believe there isn't a $500 mini PC with a handful of XLR outputs that could run it as an all in one solution.
 

freedomgli

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Dang. Looks like it's only possible for a $4000+ entry price. I have no problem paying hundreds for their software. Just can't believe there isn't a $500 mini PC with a handful of XLR outputs that could run it as an all in one solution.
Patience young grasshopper. Give it time.
 

Music1969

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Yes, better wait for the Stereo version with Bass Control as Music1969 suggested :)

Hi @Flak

Is DLP now supporting stereo plus multi-sub with Bass Control , for macOS?

Or still in progress?

And what about multichannel plus multi-sub with Bass Control?
 

phoenixdogfan

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Vasr

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I've applied to get the beta version of bass control for my PC. Never heard back one way or the other. Do you know if Dirac is beta trialing the PC version software? If not now, when?

I am supposed to be on that list as well but have heard nothing for months.

I think their priority is DL (measuring, filter generation software), integration with hardware working with brands and then DLP (which might be outsourced development, I am not sure).

It is the DLP integration that seems to be holding up the PC use of DLBC. DL is common for all and ready.
 

tecnogadget

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@Soundstage( We simply stick to our company's policy to only talk of something when it's ready to ship. Prevents vaporware and potential delays.. that's all. :)
DevTeam

@devteam
I understand your policy, still, I can't help but ask if it is really so out of place to make a simple comment indicating whether you are currently interested or working on incorporating DLBC into existing or future products? You wouldn't get your hands on it either.

I believe that you have a unique opportunity at the moment, given that the AVR industry has not caught up and has not even bothered to try to approach the standards proposed by Amir's tests.
I think there are many of us who want to apply DLBC for the enjoyment of multichannel movies (if someone feels identified please comment). This usually involves the use of a Blu Ray/UHD player, etc.

You have created an incredible product called nanoAVR. This avoided us to depend on AVR manufacturers and to be able to apply Dirac using our existing processors and amplifiers. The only problem was that it was not future proof, had limited processing power, used an old HDMI standard, and had some stability & EDID issues. Still, the beauty of this box was DIGITAL IN- DIGITAL OUT, no worry about on boards Dac's, SINAD, linearity, conversion quality loss, etc.

As you can see, the list of actual DLBC compatible AVRs with a minimum of 2 independent outputs for Sub is very low. But the main problem is that they present very little value due to their very high MSRP (almost prohibitive for typical audio enthusiast) and bad results of objective measurements conducted by Amir.

1603973715054.png

AVR20: 2.999,00 € AVR30: 4.899,00 € Focal Astral16: 21.000,00 € Monolith HTP-1: 3.400,00€

A new updated black box-like nanoAVR would be a giant killer, especially if carefully priced as it did. Of course, this time should be a little bit more future proof (upgradeable) with up to date HDMI specs and also could add some Toslink input/output for legacy AVR's. Even if it does not include the latest codecs (usually a little bit gimmick) like Atmos or DTS:X because of licensing issues or prohibitive fees, it would still be a giant killer.
 

Vincentponcet

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I don't understand what is available in terms of Dirac Live with Bass Control as VST plugin for JRiver in multi-channel 5.1/7.1 to either one sub or multi-subs.

I see https://live.dirac.com/pro-audio/ provides multi-channel for "2.0, 2.1, 3,1, 4.1, 5.0, 5.1, 5.0.2, 5.1.2, 6.0, 6.1, 7.0, 7.1, 7.0.2, 7.1.2, Quadraphonic, Pentagonal, Hexagonal, Octagonal, Ambisonic" for 499$

But it does not say if it is using the bass control technology with AI to have a more coherent low frequency in room response using multiple subs and/or sub+mains

The beta was open more than a year ago, https://www.dirac.com/dirac-live-bass-management-beta-signup

Today, the status is not clear to me.
 
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Usernome

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Anyone hear anything about Dirac Bass Control coming to anything else? Let alone NAD products, minidsp, etc. Seems like its been radio silence on this despite it being a pretty big new feature.
 
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phoenixdogfan

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Anyone here anything about Dirac Bass Control coming to anything else? Let alone NAD products, minidsp, etc. Seems like its been radio silence on this despite it being a pretty big new feature.
I don't understand the lack of communication on Dirac's part. I finally upgraded my PC based version of Dirac Studio in the last couple of months. Getting it or even knowing it was available was like pulling teeth. When you go to the website, you get a lot of boilerplate amounting to a missionary sales spiel, but nothing on how to access it as a PC based system or an upgrade for the existing PC based system. I don't know why they could not have just provided in simple easy to understand language complete with hypertext pages as a way to just do the purchase/upgrade.

I find that a lot of these websites selling these software packages are long on explanation for newbies and short on information on how, when, where, and how much the software is. And Dirac is one of the very worst offenders.

Now we have this bass management feature, and no clue when or how or even if it will be available for anyone who doesn't own a $15k+ AV Processor.
 

Lorenzo74

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They maybe realize it is not so easy to deploy a working software outside of a given hardware or they might have concern on IP protection...?

@Flak so when we can Pay and Enjoy DRLBM? It’s too ambitious to ask about Dirac Unison?
It’s possible that this tech is only available on a Swedish SUV today? It’s unfair. We really would like to upgrade our license and enjoy a controlled bass as we enjoy flat frequency response and perfect impulse response.
“poi mettere una buona parola con Mathias Johansson?”
Happy New year
Best
Lorenzo
 

phoenixdogfan

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They maybe realize it is not so easy to deploy a working software outside of a given hardware or they might have concern on IP protection...?

@Flak so when we can Pay and Enjoy DRLBM? It’s too ambitious to ask about Dirac Unison?
It’s possible that this tech is only available on a Swedish SUV today? It’s unfair. We really would like to upgrade our license and enjoy a controlled bass as we enjoy flat frequency response and perfect impulse response.
“poi mettere una buona parola con Mathias Johansson?”
Happy New year
Best
Lorenzo
This is exactly what I mean. Just read about Unison b/c I never heard of it until I read your post just now. And guess what--sounds exactly like what anyone would ideally want a Room and Speaker correction software to do. And guess what--it's only available as an option on a Volvo sound system of all things.

This is what I mean by Dirac just missing the mark with its existing customer base big time. If this ever becomes available will we ever even learn about it. Dirac has my email address, and I'm quite sure I've given my permission to be updated on this kind of development. So why no emails, why no explanation of what is, when it will be available, what kind of platform is needed to run it, and who will get it first, next and last. Jeesh, I even know what group I fall into for the Covid vaccines, but Dirac updates, not so much. And I'm standing by with an open checkbook.
 
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Lorenzo74

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This is exactly what I mean. Just read about Unison b/c I never heard of it until I read your post just now. And guess what--sounds exactly like what anyone would ideally want a Room and Speaker correction software to do. And guess what--it's only available as an option on a Volvo sound system of all things.

This is what I mean by Dirac just missing the mark with its existing customer base big time. If this ever becomes available will we ever even learn about it. Dirac has my email address, and I'm quite sure I've given my permission to be updated on this kind of development. So why no emails, why no explanation of what is, when it will be available, what kind of platform is needed to run it, and who will get it first, next and last. Jeesh, I even know what group I fall into for the Covid vaccines, but Dirac updates, not so much. And I'm standing by with an open checkbook.
So you like my post? there is a button...:p
Flavio (Flak) works for Dirac. In many forums he provided a lot of info and updates. There is also a very good interview (home theatre geeks ep. 269) to Mathias J, Dirac CEO. Go on youtube, you’ll find a lot. For the product release consider Dirac live bass management is the trikle down version of Unison for the low frequency only. It’s difficult as far as I understood to calibrate unison full range. Let’s wait @Flak , is public holiday today in Italy. Best
Lorenzo
 
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