I'm tired of audiophile and high fidelity confusion.

[diegooo1972]

You haven't told me your score on the 'test'... even if you don't share the scale concept.

You try to trick me Objectivity and subjectivity are 2 contradictory concepts. 0 or 1. You can't use a scale or you imply that your grey area is consistent. It's not when you talk about objectivity. But of course is perfectly fine if you want to go for some objective measure and then use your bias to make a choice. But you can't escape from the logic at the base. If you want an honest answer my choice are probably biased too and subjective in some degree. I just try to be as objective as I can cause this is a solid base to make a choice. But I don't pretend that I can be on both sides when im in your grey area. I try to avoid that grey are.

 

[North_Sky]

 

[solderdude]

You try to trick me Objectivity and subjectivity are 2 contradictory concepts. 0 or 1. You can't use a scale or you imply that your grey area is consistent. It's not when you talk about objectivity. But of course is perfectly fine if you want to go for some objective measure and then use your bias to make a choice. But you can't escape from the logic at the base. If you want an honest answer my choice are probably biased too and subjective in some degree. I just try to as objective as I can cause this is a solid base to make a choice. But I don't pretend that I can be on both sides when im in your grey area. I try to avoid that grey are.

You are evading the question.

I score a '0' (not surprisingly as I formulated the questions ) but still think many folks are 'inbetweenivists' (as I call them).
Your assertion is there is '0' and my 1 -10 are basically all 'subjectivsists and there is no scale they should all be considered a '1'.

 

[diegooo1972]

Everyone is free. My words will not deprive anyone of their freedom. I understand audiophile behavior except for obvious snake oil product. I don't like when subjective choice or views pretends to stand on the objective side. That happen often in the audiophile marketing and in audiophile enthusiast.

 

[North_Sky]

I only posted it because Django and Diego were two good friends.

 

[diegooo1972]

You are evading the question.

I score a '0' (not surprisingly as I formulated the questions ) but still think many folks are 'inbetweenivists' (as I call them).
Your assertion is there is '0' and my 1 -10 are basically all 'subjectivsists and there is no scale they should all be considered a '1'.

Let's put it that way. There is objective behaviour outside the scale then you can build your scale. I try to be outside the scale on the objective side but most probably I fall on the 9-10 of your scale due to some bias that escape me. We are all human after all. Again you can't put subjectivity and objectivity in a scale. That's a logic fault.

 

[North_Sky]

 

[killdozzer]

@diegooo1972 yes, you're completely right. You said it very well and simple. As two general directions, hifi crowd will invest effort in faithful reproduction. Audiophiles will chase some sound signature.

Eve though no reproduction is completly faithful, still some will say they won't give up just because it's hard and some will give up immediately and just look for the thrill.

These two early decisions will mark all their later choices. Hifi crowd won't be eager to overpay an amp since even a 500$ Denon does everything it is supposed to AND, very important, not more than it is supposed to. They will be more incline to treat the room, but wiht absorbers and not cable lifters and so on.

Audiophiles looking for a thrill will be very ready to replace one sound signature with another simply because the thrill wears off. There's a lot of lateral movement in audiophile world. Very often they are in fact involved in preping their brains to hear differences that are not really there, like gulping huge amounts of marketing BS brochures which result in them listening more closely and having an illusion that they hear difference while no change occured.

It's all in here. If there's a way to make your brain think the steak is real, do you care it isn't? Hifists do, audiophiles don't.

 

[diegooo1972]

I think we share some taste in music. Sinnerman is an amazing performance by Nina Simone. Thumbs up.

 

[solderdude]

Let's put it that way. There is objective behaviour outside the scale then you can build your scale. I try to be outside the scale on the objective side but most probably I fall on the 9-10 of your scale due to some bias that escape me. We are all human after all. Again you can't put subjectivity and objectivity in a scale. That's a logic fault.

You'll never really know where you would score when you don't take the 'test' only assume which is not scientific.
One either takes the test (measures and knows) or one doesn't and guesses or doesn't care (subjective).

Life isn't yes, no only. It is yes or no based on personal values/opinions. Personal values is what differs and creates the scale, yet decisions made are 0/1.
Assuming or stating that your standpoint is the only correct one is another matter. When one is convinced its the only correct one then this is problematic in principle... embrace the analog scale or use bytes instead of bits.

 

[diegooo1972]

You'll never really know where you would score when you don't take the 'test' only assume which is not scientific.
One either takes the test (measures and knows) or one doesn't and guesses or doesn't care (subjective).

Life isn't yes, no only. It is yes or no based on personal values/opinions. Personal values is what differs and creates the scale, yet decisions made are 0/1.

Putting objective and subjective on a scale is like to put scientific fact with non scientific fact in a scale. You can do whatever you want but it's not logically constent. When you do that you remove objectivity from science and in that case science will not be consistent anymore. This is a logic fault.

 

[solderdude]

As two general directions, hifi crowd will invest effort in faithful reproduction. Audiophiles will chase some sound signature.

You are conflating audiophiles & audiophools

 

[solderdude]

Putting objective and subjective on a scale is like to put scientific fact with non scientific fact in a scale. You can do whatever you want but it's not logically constent. When you do that you remove objectivity from science and in that case science will not be consistent anymore. This is a logic fault.

Science should always be based on facts.
Take the Harman curve for example. It is determined in a scientific way yet based on preference of individuals (purely subjective converted to objective).
There was a variance in preference and a 'point' was chosen (scientifics based) where the preference 'point' was based. It was revised later on.
Is this science or not and does this make the Harman curve a true reference ?
Science becomes scetchy when human preferences are involved.

Why can't people exist that base their choices on specific measurements only or completely disregard them and solely rely on subjective babble.
Why isn't there a sliding scale where decisions are made solely on measurements or solely on nonsense/belief/(deliberate) misinformation ?

 

[diegooo1972]

You are conflating audiophiles & audiophools.

I think most of the problem here reside in misconception about science. Marketing had leverage science facts for decades in every aspect of our life, going away from science. Just to sell. Science is unhuman for definition. People don't like that especially when you need to mix something emotional and artistic like music with electronic science. I understand thtat. But these are 2 completely different domains. The thing that make me smile is that without electronic science we can't have our equipments. Not following science in equipments is obviously contradictory. But it's pretty obvious that talking about music, people will follow emotion as well. Whatever it is, is fine for me. But mixing this 2 path is still a logical non sense. For that reason I rely on original music that I try to reproduce the best I can. I don't rely too much in a concept behind audiophile that is somthing like "Artistic science". This is simply not science. And you end to have music plus artistic equipment. I stick to the original music without artistic equipment in the middle. Signature sound is an effect and if it's good you can consider it an artistic job in the middle. As greast as it is not science after all if you can show why is godd in scientific terms.

 

[diegooo1972]

Science should always be based on facts.
Take the Harman curve for example. It is determined in a scientific way yet based on preference of individuals (purely subjective converted to objective).

Be very carefull with that path too. You end up thinking you can scientifically describe human behavior. This is the worst dehumanization possible. And you will never find a scientific demonstration that this concept is even possibile. Its based on statistic and hold a lot of error and human bias in the making process. This is arguably science but it's debatable. This is obviously not the right place.

 

[solderdude]

I never said one can scientifically describe human nature.

This is arguably science but it's debatable.

This is formulated quite well.

For that reason I rely on original music that I try to reproduce the best I can.

That's a human choice based on your values and belief that this is science.
Obviously I am fully agreed on this though.
My main point is what I kept coming back to is the audibilty threshold.
Your viewpoint is the better it measures the better it is. Technically this is correct. However, above a certain point it does not matter to human perception where that point is. It even varies from person to person and case by case.
That's the grey area to me.
It's fine if you feel best technically possible is desirable.. most ASR members would agree. That doesn't mean there isn't a gliding scale of where it starts to matter.

 

[Chrispy]

Again, what does emotions have to do with electronics? You're saying some engineers are more attuned to their emotional side when designing gear? Or just certain "audiophiles'" perceptions of "differences" in gear that affects them emotionally for some reason?

 

[Thomas savage]

This is like watching the original Star Trek series, except less entertaining.

The battles between our inner Spock and Kirk lol

 

[diegooo1972]

I never said one can scientifically describe human nature.


This is formulated quite well.


That's a human choice based on your values and belief that this is science.
Obviously I am fully agreed on this though.
My main point is what I kept coming back to is the audibilty threshold.
Your viewpoint is the better it measures the better it is. Technically this is correct. However, above a certain point it does not matter to human perception where that point is. It even varies from person to person and case by case.
That's the grey area to me.
It's fine if you feel best technically possible is desirable.. most ASR members would agree. That doesn't mean there isn't a gliding scale of where it starts to matter.

So you mean that over that threshold objectivity don't mean anymore so you can go on with bias insertion of signature or effect as I see it. Well you can of course but in that moment you get out from science facts only because you don't need it anymore from that point. From my point of view I don't care about signature. I prefer crystal clear and then add a signature of my choice if I need. In your path you will follow signatures to find out the one that suits you better. A funny and interesting path. No kidding here I mean it. But it's not your signature. With actual technology and some study you can build your own signature over a crystal clear equipments. In the same way the music you listen to is created so it can be more then fair. I must disagree that this study on human behavior is formulated well. Statistic is a pain and you can manipulate it very easily to show what you want. The best selling book about statistic is about lying with statistic to tell what you need or what you want. The book is "HOW OT LIE WITH STATISTIC" from DARREL HUFF.

 

[solderdude]

In your path you will follow signatures to find out the one that suits you better

Nope not at all. In my path I allow certain alterations to the original signal that remain below audible thresholds. That means devices don't need to be THE best (your HiFi) but need to be good enough to NOT be audible (my HiFi) which obviously is higher in parameters than DIN45500.

What you believe is my path is merely stating things just have to 'sound good'. That is not my path but do not think people taking that path are wrong to do so. My 'path' (good enough is good enough and better is not audibly better) is just as scientific based as just assuming only the lowest achievable is good.
VFM is highest priority on my list as well.