Safety And Design of DIY originated Audio Products

[Mivera]

Is this Chris?

I'm not mentioning any names. But if you clue in to who it is, I highly doubt he's going to decide to sell the Purestream and replace with nails on chalkboard sounding ML gear. He also likes the 10 year warranty, along with full original purchase price credit with trade in over a period of 10 years. Do you offer that?

 

[amirm]

I'm not mentioning any names. But if you clue in to who it is, I highly doubt he's going to decide to sell the Purestream and replace with nails on chalkboard sounding ML gear. He also likes the 10 year warranty, along with full original purchase price credit with trade in over a period of 10 years. Do you offer that?

I don't give one bit about any of that. I am just trying to verify your claim that he doesn't care. My company is NOT in the business of selling equipment to audiophiles. My interest is strictly to see if once he knows what he has bought, he keeps smiling as you say.

Or do you want to take that claim back now?

 

[Mivera]

I don't give one bit about any of that. I am just trying to verify your claim that he doesn't care. My company is NOT in the business of selling equipment to audiophiles. My interest is strictly to see if once he knows what he has bought, he keeps smiling as you say.

Or do you want to take that claim back now?

He know's exactly what he bought. And it wasn't the DIY unit that was built by a client of mine that you misleadingly used as an example of my commercial unit. I show a picture right on my website of how my commercial unit's are assembled. On the DIY thread on DIYaudio, I posted high resolution photo's of my commercial build that has insulated faston connectors.

Besides even if the premium faston's used in that DIY build fell off from some magical forces, all it would do is break the connection to the mains. On the other end that matters, the faston's are soldered to the posts direct, and heatshrinked over the entire prongs.

 

[Cosmik]

Are mains power supplies in audio equipment a sign of manufacturing manliness?

Wall warts based on linear supplies used to be a bit hefty and hot, and professional equipment maybe needs to be a bit more robust than fiddling about with a separate supply. But for domestic hi-fi, I think a wall wart actually many advantages for the customer and the manufacturer. I think you'd need to be a masochist to want to design a mains power supply into your equipment.

For a start it opens you up to appearing in this sort of thread, and surely the issues with having to earth all exposed metalwork make it a performance issue, too..? Maybe your equipment works OK in some combinations but causes hum loops in others. And then you are in the realms of encouraging your customers to remove earths or to fit illegal 'earth lifters' or whatever, all in the service of playing back some line level audio!

The audiophile world is truly amazing: you can rely on it to turn a $100 low voltage, low power device into a multi-thousand dollar, high voltage, high power death trap, with hum loops.

 

[Mivera]

Are mains power supplies in audio equipment a sign of manufacturing manliness?

Wall warts based on linear supplies used to be a bit hefty and hot, and professional equipment maybe needs to be a bit more robust than fiddling about with a separate supply. But for domestic hi-fi, I think a wall wart actually many advantages for the customer and the manufacturer. I think you'd need to be a masochist to want to design a mains power supply into your equipment.

For a start it opens you up to appearing in this sort of thread, and surely the issues with having to earth all exposed metalwork make it a performance issue, too..? Maybe your equipment works OK in some combinations but causes hum loops in others. And then you are in the realms of encouraging your customers to remove earths or to fit illegal 'earth lifters' or whatever, all in the service of playing back some line level audio!

The audiophile world is truly amazing: you can rely on it to turn a $100 low voltage, low power device into a multi-thousand dollar, high voltage, high power death trap, with hum loops.

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned all of my Purestream's have been sold to happy clients. And I can assure you that your fear mongering BS certainly isn't an issue for them.

You see only idiot's who don't have a clue about how things work would even be concerned by any of this BS. And I haven't sold any DAC's to folks who meet that description.

My OEM clients have been in the business for decades and couldn't care less about anything you guys say as they have already evaluated the gear in house. You guys are specifically targeting idiots, and I don't do business with idiots. That's what Harman products are built for.

 

[amirm]

And it wasn't the DIY unit that was built by a client of mine that you misleadingly used as an example of my commercial unit. I show a picture right on my website of how my commercial unit's are assembled. On the DIY thread on DIYaudio, I posted high resolution photo's of my commercial build that has insulated faston connectors.

And you post it here and all the same issues apply:

Here's an example of how our commercial Purestreams were built. 100% to CE code.

Where do you see insulation on those shiny connectors???

And where is the chassis ground?

How is that EMI noise filter mounted?

Why is AC mains coming out of the filter block so close to the audio signal output (white wires?)

How is that signal wire properly twisted from start to finish for a balanced connection

For what reason do they sit next to each other as to increase crosstalk?

This is work of a novice electronics builder that is putting kits together without understanding about safe and performant practices.

 

[Mivera]

And you post it here and all the same issues apply:


View attachment 8346
Where do you see insulation on those shiny connectors???

And where is the chassis ground?

How is that EMI noise filter mounted?

Why is AC mains coming out of the filter block so close to the audio signal output (white wires?)

How is that signal wire properly twisted from start to finish for a balanced connection

For what reason do they sit next to each other as to increase crosstalk?

This is work of a novice electronics builder that is putting kits together without understanding about safe and performant practices.

Obviously you're colour blind. Can't you see the pink insulation on the faston's? And I already told you the chassis ground isn't visible in that picture, but it's there.

That mains cable is shielded. Good luck getting interference from it.

Now that we're on the same page that there's no safety issues, my clients already know how the units sound. So claiming there's performance issues certainly isn't going to carry much weight.

 

[Cosmik]

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned all of my Purestream's have been sold to happy clients. And I can assure you that your fear mongering BS certainly isn't an issue for them.

You see only idiot's who don't have a clue about how things work would even be concerned by any of this BS. And I haven't sold any DAC's to folks who meet that description.

My OEM clients have been in the business for decades and couldn't care less about anything you guys say as they have already evaluated the gear in house. You guys are specifically targeting idiots, and I don't do business with idiots. That's what Harman products are built for.

Surely anyone who thought deeply about it would realise that the clients' happiness has got nothing to do with whether a 'product' has the potential to do something unpleasant! Of course in 99% of cases nothing will happen - but that doesn't prove anything. A person with any imagination would worry about it a lot - I know I would.

Unlike Amir, I am not happy with the 'professionals'' gear either. All of this boutique stuff seems a bit dodgy to me for the simple reason that it is unnecessary. If a manufacturer is putting together an unnecessary, expensive, odd 'product', it offends against the idea of honest engineering. If it's not proper engineering then who knows what oddness lurks within it. Even if it's not killing us by electrocution, might it one day blow out our woofers or fry our tweeters?

I believe that large companies do worry about this stuff, but not the glorified hobbyists.

 

[Mivera]

Here's a closer picture of the faston's I used:

 

[Cosmik]

Yes! I have finally groped my way to my main argument. It is this: if a person or company produces a DAC that costs many thousands of dollars, there are two options:
(1) They are very cynical, or
(2) They are deluded about what is necessary to engineer a DAC

If it is (1), there is a chance the product is perfectly safe, like Sony designing a very expensive audiophile DAC to play back audio from their very expensive (and clearly cynical) audiophile SD cards.

But in other cases, we can't be sure whether it is (1) or (2). If it is (2), our lives are in the hands of someone who doesn't believe in measurements, or believes in magic, or that they have an amazing gift of 'DAC whispering' that the sad idiots in the industry just don't understand. Aagh!

 

[amirm]

While you're on a roll, here's some more pictures you can bash:

Bash, no. But let's review those. Here is the post-regulator board from the DIYaudio thread:

In the DIY thread you say that the regulators are Bellson. Let's look at their data sheet and recommendations for design: http://www.belleson.com/download/Superpower_datasheet.pdf

Your design starts with a switchmode power supply. That power supply will regulate its output and hence, cause lack of headroom in this regulator per above. Had you used a linear transformer and rectification/filtering like everyone else, you would be compliant with the above. But you did not. You stuck a switchmode power supply in there.

You have input caps per my notation. But they are anything but close to the pins of the regulators that are lined up to be pretty rather than functional.

As I noted, the right design is to have freestanding heatsinks on each regulator which then allows you to optimally position them on board and in this case, have their input capacitor right at their Vin pin.

Using the wrong enclosure, i.e. an amplifier one, has caused you to have more inductance in those input pins which reduces the effectiveness of those capacitor.

As I am showing, you have a line of caps there but they are not near the load. They are going through a connector, wires, then some more PCB traces before they reach their loads. These caps need to be there, not on this board.

This advice is not at all unique to these regulators. They are simple, good practices used by experienced analog designers.

Look at the layout of the Mytek DAC for example:

I have marked the caps in yellow. See how they use heatsinks right on the regulator, allowing the capacitors to be right next to them.

This is why I keep asking you for measurements of those parts rather than specs you read on their web site. When IC manufacturers test their parts, they do everything in their power to optimize the layout and design to get the best numbers (that is what sells their parts and you are proof of it). When you deviate from that, your performance degrades. How much, we don't know without measurements which you have not performed.

 

[Mivera]

Bash, no. But let's review those. Here is the post-regulator board from the DIYaudio thread:

View attachment 8348

In the DIY thread you say that the regulators are Bellson. Let's look at their data sheet and recommendations for design: http://www.belleson.com/download/Superpower_datasheet.pdf

View attachment 8349

Your design starts with a switchmode power supply. That power supply will regulate its output and hence, cause lack of headroom in this regulator per above. Had you used a linear transformer and rectification/filtering like everyone else, you would be compliant with the above. But you did not. You stuck a switchmode power supply in there.

View attachment 8350

You have input caps per my notation. But they are anything but close to the pins of the regulators that are lined up to be pretty rather than functional.

As I noted, the right design is to have freestanding heatsinks on each regulator which then allows you to optimally position them on board and in this case, have their input capacitor right at their Vin pin.

Using the wrong enclosure, i.e. an amplifier one, has caused you to have more inductance in those input pins which reduces the effectiveness of those capacitor.

View attachment 8352

As I am showing, you have a line of caps there but they are not near the load. They are going through a connector, wires, then some more PCB traces before they reach their loads. These caps need to be there, not on this board.

This advice is not at all unique to these regulators. They are simple, good practices used by experienced analog designers.

Look at the layout of the Mytek DAC for example:

View attachment 8353


I have marked the caps in yellow. See how they use heatsinks right on the regulator, allowing the capacitors to be right next to them.

This is why I keep asking you for measurements of those parts rather than specs you read on their web site. When IC manufacturers test their parts, they do everything in their power to optimize the layout and design to get the best numbers (that is what sells their parts and you are proof of it). When you deviate from that, your performance degrades. How much, we don't know without measurements which you have not performed.

Brian was referring to input caps when used with linear supplies. The rest is all just more BS. This is a proven design, that's been well measured and performance has been verified. It's been compared with 30+ top DAC's in the industry by 25 of our beta testers. Done deal, case closed. The Mivera Audio research project is now over.

Time to move on to attack the next direct seller Amir, because no damage can be done to me.

 

[amirm]

Let's look at the Bellson reference design: https://www.belleson.com/supply1.php

Simple, and produces the performance they state. Caps are right next to the regulators as I noted from their ap note. And of course it is a linear supply.

 

[Mivera]

Let's look at the Bellson reference design: https://www.belleson.com/supply1.php

Simple, and produces the performance they state. Caps are right next to the regulators as I noted from their ap note. And of course it is a linear supply.

If you didn't notice it's a linear supply. We did things the way we did for a reason. And that reason certainly reflects in the end result as all Purestream owners know.

 

[amirm]

If you didn't notice it's a linear supply. We did things the way we did for a reason. And that reason certainly reflects in the end result as all Purestream owners know.

With no instrumentation, or controlled testing, you went against the supplier of your power regulator. Let's see. You know more than they and 1000 other DAC and analog designers.

All of these are symptoms of someone who reads things online and thinks these are simple lego pieces to jam together. No understanding of underlying circuits. How they work. How their performance is impacted. Safety considerations.

Even when I show you where you have gone wrong from the manufacturer of the very part, you ignore it and keep going.

 

[Mivera]

With no instrumentation, or controlled testing, you went against the supplier of your power regulator. Let's see. You know more than they and 1000 other DAC and analog designers.

All of these are symptoms of someone who reads things online and thinks these are simple lego pieces to jam together. No understanding of underlying circuits. How they work. How their performance is impacted. Safety considerations.

Even when I show you where you have gone wrong from the manufacturer of the very part, you ignore it and keep going.

I can't see how creating a DAC that smokes everything under $90000 for only $3000 is doing something wrong?? You're not going to convince the 25 Purestream owners that their DAC doesn't sound good. We already debunked your BS safety issues. Done deal Amir. You lose, I win.

 

[amirm]

I can't see how creating a DAC that smokes everything under $90000 for only $3000 is doing something wrong??

You charge $3,000 for this hobby box??? Good grief.

And no, I don't believe for a second your subjective claims. You have less competence in evaluating that field than the electronic one.

 

[Mivera]

You charge $3,000 for this hobby box??? Good grief.

And no, I don't believe for a second your subjective claims. You have less competence in evaluating that field than the electronic one.

Sorry but none of these subjective claims come from me. 100% feedback from clients. In fact I have several clients trading up to custom systems. These are guys who have owned everything out there.

ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A CLOWN TO PURESTREAM OWNERS. AND ANYONE ELSE IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE MIVERA AUDIO IS CLOSED FOR BUSINESS OTHER THAN CUSTOM PROJECTS.

 

[amirm]

Sorry but none of these subjective claims come from me. 100% feedback from clients. In fact I have several clients trading up to custom systems. These are guys who have owned everything out there.

Subjective claims are a dime a dozen for any audio product. I could sell some rocks and get glowing reviews that it made the sound better.

What matters is proper comparison in a controlled test where the knowledge of product is removed and levels equalized. The rest is folklore which every manufacturer has.

BTW, when I went to DIYaudio forum, I noticed you are banned there. You used to tell me that was your real home and how they loved you there. What happened?

 

[Mivera]

Subjective claims are a dime a dozen for any audio product. I could sell some rocks and get glowing reviews that it made the sound better.

What matters is proper comparison in a controlled test where the knowledge of product is removed and levels equalized. The rest is folklore which every manufacturer has.

BTW, when I went to DIYaudio forum, I noticed you are banned there. You used to tell me that was your real home and how they loved you there. What happened?

Your methods of evaluating gear is folklore to 90% of the market. Not everyone who likes music wears pocket protectors.

Now you're making up stuff again. I got banned for sharing this video here. I was directing it at forum based numbers mongers who are incapable of independent thought. You know the types who need everything peer reviewed to accept as they don't have the ability or confidence to assess anything themselves?