• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

ASR Headphone Testing and BK 5128 Hats Measurement System

OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,374
Likes
234,451
Location
Seattle Area
What kind of monitoring & responding are you after? In terms of listening tests for headphones you measure, or monitoring & responding in other ways?
Mostly in investigating the measurement results, help comparing it to other tests, catch operational issues, testing for specific things, etc. In other words, I don't know yet. :) I just know that we have short amount of time to gather as much information we can to make a go to no-go decision on the test fixture, putting aside the budgetary issues.

It will also be a great opportunity for us to all learn what this new system does, no matter if I go ahead with it or not.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,374
Likes
234,451
Location
Seattle Area
How about an in-depth measurement and subjective listening test review for a device such as this using typical audiophile headphones? Use Amir's Salon2s for speaker modeling:

Smyth A16 Realiser 2U - SMYTH Research
I have had a couple of opportunities to get one for testing but it has not happened. Hopefully it will. I listened to a prototype back in 2008 and it was incredible.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,875
Likes
6,673
Location
UK
Mostly in investigating the measurement results, help comparing it to other tests, catch operational issues, testing for specific things, etc. In other words, I don't know yet. :) I just know that we have short amount of time to gather as much information we can to make a go to no-go decision on the test fixture, putting aside the budgetary issues.

It will also be a great opportunity for us to all learn what this new system does, no matter if I go ahead with it or not.
Sounds great, well I come on ASR every day pretty much, some days I have more time than others, but I'd willingly take a look at anything you produce and compare graphs with other resources, etc.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,374
Likes
234,451
Location
Seattle Area
More random and anonymous people turning up to moan and demand to be taken seriously in their complaints about the colour of amirm's trousers when he's testing things and how it's not science if it's not done just like they ( totally unqualified random person) think it should be ...

Can't wait lol
This is the #1 reason I may not get into headphone testing. So we need to identify the greater good against this onslaught of grief that is guaranteed to come with it.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,374
Likes
234,451
Location
Seattle Area
Is there a headphone I should buy right now to make testing more meaningful? I have HD-650, Hifiman HE400i, Grado SR80 (?), Sony MDRV6 (?), Drop Ether CX. I also have a Sony and Harman headphone whose model numbers escape me but did the best in Harman controlled listening tests.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SMc

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,698
So the 5128 HATS will be here on Monday. And it must be shipped back on Friday. If you have a wish list of something specific to be done with it, this is the time to let me know! My current plan is to test with the few headphones I have and compare to what is out there. And do some investigation on distortion.

If you have the ability to swap any pads I would love to know the extent to which they could/ do change things. Depends what you have on hand of course or can get short notice (Brainwavs are cheap and decent for my money)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,374
Likes
234,451
Location
Seattle Area
If you have the ability to swap any pads I would love to know the extent to which they could/ do change things. Depends what you have on hand of course or can get short notice (Brainwavs are cheap and decent for my money)
Good suggestion. Please give me a link to amazon for pads please. :)
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,698
Is there a headphone I should buy right now to make testing more meaningful? I have HD-650, Hifiman HE400i, Grado SR80 (?), Sony MDRV6 (?), Drop Ether CX. I also have a Sony and Harman headphone whose model numbers escape me but did the best in Harman controlled listening tests.

A Beyer 770/880/990 would cover a lot of users, or an AKG 7 series
 

bobbooo

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 30, 2019
Messages
1,479
Likes
2,079
Is there a headphone I should buy right now to make testing more meaningful? I have HD-650, Hifiman HE400i, Grado SR80 (?), Sony MDRV6 (?), Drop Ether CX. I also have a Sony and Harman headphone whose model numbers escape me but did the best in Harman controlled listening tests.

As you already have a couple of examples of both dynamic driver and planar magnetic headphones, I think an electrostatic pair would be great for a comparison e.g. the Koss ESP/95X via Drop/Massdrop.
 
Last edited:

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,698
Good suggestion. Please give me a link to amazon for pads please. :)

Ive put these on my Ether- a lot bigger than stock- I like! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076SLL6BK/ref=twister_B076SHF8LV?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
They do a range so linked items on there should get you to the Sennheiser 6xx etc

Range of materials - but I like the leather on the Ether, I have a pair of hybrids (felt and perforated pleather) on other cans too. Up to you how many pads and swaps you want to buy and test. Maybe buy a range of fit and finish for the Ether .
 

bobbooo

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 30, 2019
Messages
1,479
Likes
2,079
Good suggestion. Please give me a link to amazon for pads please. :)

There's been suggestions from some that the main difference between the Hifiman HE4XX ($160 from Drop) and the HE400i is the pads (although I suspect it's more than that), the former using the FocusPad A, so fitting these on your HE400i could be a good test of this.
 
Last edited:

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,751
Likes
20,766
Location
Canada
It seems @amirm has the test equipment itch. :D For what it's worth when I was actively working and servicing gear I found a good test equipment dealer and stocked up on 2 racks of Tektronix, Hewlett Packard and some various high end power supplies. It cost a bundle but it opened some doors and provided much more gear for work. I think it's a fantastic idea @amirm and I think the subscribing base of ASR will send in headphones galore for your analyses. I will send in mine even from Canada. For a developing website and the associated gear req'd for supporting it you are doing veryyy well and the addition of a HP test rig will further diversify your efforts in a very positive way. :D
 
Last edited:

MZKM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
4,244
Likes
11,472
Location
Land O’ Lakes, FL
Is there a headphone I should buy right now to make testing more meaningful? I have HD-650, Hifiman HE400i, Grado SR80 (?), Sony MDRV6 (?), Drop Ether CX. I also have a Sony and Harman headphone whose model numbers escape me but did the best in Harman controlled listening tests.
You are going to want headphones that have already been measured by others, so that a comparison can be made.

So:
Crinacle: https://crinacle.com/rankings/headphones/
Rtings: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/table/35235
Oratory: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets#wiki_full_list.3A

M50X is probably the most popular entry level headphone (>15,000 reviews on Amazon), I also see many studios using Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pros.

Also, has anyone measured the differences between all 4 models of the DT 770 Pro?

_________
Also, don't forget about sensitivity, it's something InnerFidelity did (including needed voltage for desired SPL) that not much others do. Of course, without adjusting it to some target response one would need to pick a single frequency (say 1kHz).
 
Last edited:

Archsam

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2020
Messages
326
Likes
513
Location
London, UK
If this is to be an exercise to entice the most audience, how about the really popular headphones that every website is recommending for 'average joes' on a lot of top 10 list?

I'm thinking Sony Wh-1000xM3 / Bose QuietComfort 35.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,875
Likes
6,673
Location
UK
Is there a headphone I should buy right now to make testing more meaningful? I have HD-650, Hifiman HE400i, Grado SR80 (?), Sony MDRV6 (?), Drop Ether CX. I also have a Sony and Harman headphone whose model numbers escape me but did the best in Harman controlled listening tests.
How about AKG K702, very popular and been around for donkeys, still being sold, quite cheap but "audiophile". I am a bit biased though, because I have K702, but plus side is I can do EQ on the basis of your measurements (in REW) and report back any listening impressions. (not the Anniversary Edition, I don't have that one, the plain old K702)
 
Last edited:

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
This is the #1 reason I may not get into headphone testing. So we need to identify the greater good against this onslaught of grief that is guaranteed to come with it.
Well would you provide value in the marketplace, would you testing headphones make a significant impact industry wise ?

There's others doing it , given your only one man I'd suggest unless we can get someone else to do it under the ASR banner we should leave it be. We went the speaker route , it's one or the other for us as we are at the moment imo.

However Testing headphones would bring more eyes to the forum as a whole , forgetting the cost would you be happy testing less speakers in order to make time for this ? That's what it boils down to imo
 

VMAT4

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
937
Likes
743
Location
South Central Pennsylvania
More tests on the already way too full plate ?

Consider that someone like Oratory1990 already tests acc. to a standard and publishes results.
There will certainly be measurable differences with the HATS oratory uses. Even the one that Tyll used simply because the correction was very wrong.
Rtings had their own correction but slowly bends towards standards. The measurements are kind of official. Here too basic specs are missing and not tested for.
What measurements to show ? Only FR and distortion ? Also would need to build a silent room and calibrated mics/speakers in that chamber to measure leakage and isolation. There is way more to it than just a HATS.

So for measurements themselves IF they need to be compliant to a standard I would say go for current standards and not something older.

The thing that is lacking from Oratory is basic specs and subjective evaluations. In any case neatly bundled together and easy to find in one place.
Also there are always simple things (or less simple) that can be done to improve headphones (and verify them).
Include that or only 'check' specs/measurements, make a sound description and call it a day.

So IF you really want to evaluate headphones as well you should test acc. to a standard (I don't have to) then like the AP should buy the best standard and adhere to it even when it seems 'flawed'. Then you would also have to add basic specs and check those. Also recommendations and descriptions should be there. The problem is will this be in technical talk or flowery talk. Log used recordings, SPL used etc. Only then you will do better than others.

Don't do half-baked things, there are plenty doing that already (like me) but at least I try to link measurements to what is being heard.

If it needs to be ASR 'expected' quality this is going to be very costly and time consuming as well. More backlog.

For some hope in reduceing cue time by 50% by doubling Amir's production, see this link. Could Amir be in two places at one time?
 

Scgorg

Active Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
129
Likes
420
Location
Norway
While I am in full support of ASR expanding its horizons even further I can't say a lack of headphone measurements is really an issue currently. Certainly not to the extent it is for speakers and electronics. Crinacle is getting an industry standard rig, Oratory has a large database already, and Resolve has just gotten an industry standard rig on which he will undoubtedly measure a lot of headphones (thanks to him being part of the headphones.com team). While the 5128 would be an interesting counterpoint to the already existing measurement rigs (mostly GRAS 43AG variations) it isn't compliant with any current standards like many have already noted.

Beside these points, I don't think a lot of people's criticisms of the current state of headphone measurements are legitimate. Many people trying to disregard the eminent work done by Oratory (and also crinacle for IEMs) which conforms to current standards that are accurate to an average human ear/ear canal. The GRAS 43AG is accurate throughout most of the human hearing range, in the top octave where it is less accurate there will inherently be enormous variations between individuals ear geometry anyway, so other than the general trend I do believe behaviour at this level should be ignored. Just look at the differences between the same headphone being reseated 5 times on the same rig, we're talking variations of up to 20dB and more at the upper end of the passband. For IEMs which are still free of reflections this high in frequency the results can be taken more seriously. I don't think the 5128 will realistically fix these issues relative to a 43AG rig because spatial variation and the different transfer function of different ears is still present. Just my 2 cents.
 

cistercian

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
353
Likes
434
Mostly in investigating the measurement results, help comparing it to other tests, catch operational issues, testing for specific things, etc. In other words, I don't know yet. :) I just know that we have short amount of time to gather as much information we can to make a go to no-go decision on the test fixture, putting aside the budgetary issues.

It will also be a great opportunity for us to all learn what this new system does, no matter if I go ahead with it or not.

Well...Go for it Amir! If the initial tests go well add it to the tests you do now. You can blame me if
your wife froths at you!
 
Top Bottom