• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Talk me out of buying an "audiophile" preamp - confirm/deny some myths/assumptions

73hadd

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
126
Likes
96
Looking for a solid state analog-only preamp. I like the Benchmark LA4 but would like to have two sets of balanced outputs.

I am more interested and intrigued by these preamps (I do understand that none of the three are in the same price category):

Bryston BP-17 (3)
Ayre KX-5 Twenty

Considerations:

-"The Rolex Factor." Buying a quartz watch might keep better time, but a Rolex is "nicer." This is part of the emotional purchase factor that I hope we try to address on ASR. Not that you can't buy luxury items or have fun, but that information and more facts can help with decisions.

Myths/assumptions:

-"Wide Bandwidth = MAGIC." In looking at the Stereophile measurements of the Ayre and Bryston, the Ayre seems flat from about DC-250khz at 600ohms. Can performance outside the audio bandwidth, affect performance inside the audio range? Or is this an invention of the industry to justify charging thousands more?

-"No Negative Feedback = MAGIC." Audible effects of not using feedback? Sorry I know I am bringing up topics that have been addressed elsewhere, just looking for summaries.

-"Euphonics!" - Deliberate or incidental even order harmonic distortion "sounds better." Maybe not as accurate, but in a double blind test, would people prefer the sound? (Now that I mention that, my brain is struggling to cope with the fact that we discuss preference at all. The context for preference must only be "sales" and the context for accuracy only measurement?)

-"Bits of resolution" - I do miss the days when it was .03 or .003 instead of "bits".... but here is the question. If my content/sources are 16bit, then does it even matter? Sorry, we're back to the difference between "is it better on paper/in measurement" vs. "can you hear the difference." Is there a % distortion in preamps that is agreed upon, below a certain figure, no longer matters?

Thoughts? Comments? What myths have I missed?

Thank you!
 

Inner Space

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,285
Likes
2,938
My take would be this: I call "The Rolex Factor" "The My-Kind-Of-Engineer Factor". The pleasure comes from gear built by people who follow sane goals with meticulous professional attention. Both Benchmark and Bryston qualify.

Wide bandwidth is worth it. No negative feedback is nonsense. Euphonics ... yeah, people will generally enjoy a sweetened sound. But musicians and recording engineers know that already, so they'll put as much as they want into the master, so you don't need to add more at home. If you do, you're getting a double dose. Better to stay flat and accurate.

Resolution - if you're dumping 16 bits into the hopper, common sense says you don't want them to scrape the sides or hit the bottom on the way through, so cumulative system resolution of 16 bits or better is theoretically what you want. Background noise in your room and peak output restrictions from your speakers make that somewhat redundant, but I like to spec to the max - I think "good enough" is kinda miserable, in the context of Rolex-level purchases.

Get the Bryston, if its connections are what you need. Good solid people, great warranty.
 

preload

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
1,554
Likes
1,701
Location
California
Looking for a solid state analog-only preamp. I like the Benchmark LA4 but would like to have two sets of balanced outputs.

I am more interested and intrigued by these preamps (I do understand that none of the three are in the same price category):

Bryston BP-17 (3)
Ayre KX-5 Twenty

Considerations:

-"The Rolex Factor." Buying a quartz watch might keep better time, but a Rolex is "nicer." This is part of the emotional purchase factor that I hope we try to address on ASR. Not that you can't buy luxury items or have fun, but that information and more facts can help with decisions.

I'm not quite following - what are you trying to accomplish by adding a preamp? Is it to add "bling" rather than sound quality to your system?
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
In terms of performance both are good units. The Bryston somewhat better.

I'll be less kind, No feedback isn't magic, it is bull shite. Despite that the Ayre provides excellent performance. But performance a step below the Bryston in most ways while costing more. I could be more specific, but it can get boring. I'm just referring to THD at levels of output you'll actually use into loads you'll use etc.

Euphonics is something colored in a pleasing way. Most on ASR are going to prefer true fidelity to source. Once you get into colorations everyone's preference is what it is and no arguing with it.

Wide bandwidth alone isn't really helpful, but is often a side effect of getting other attributes right for analog gear.

I suppose my main idea might be, why use a preamp? What will your source components be? You probably can get a DAC/preamp which is as good or better for less money. The dual XLR outputs might be the only impediment.
 

preload

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
1,554
Likes
1,701
Location
California
Looking for a solid state analog-only preamp. I like the Benchmark LA4 but would like to have two sets of balanced outputs.

Considerations:

-"The Rolex Factor." Buying a quartz watch might keep better time, but a Rolex is "nicer." This is part of the emotional purchase factor that I hope we try to address on ASR. Not that you can't buy luxury items or have fun, but that information and more facts can help with decisions.

Perhaps a user by name of @watchnerd can help
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,201
Likes
16,982
Location
Riverview FL
I have a fifteen year old pseudo-Rolex-semi-audiophile preamp:

1596496387380.png


Made in USA.
 

VMAT4

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
937
Likes
743
Location
South Central Pennsylvania
The only thing you get with a new car that a used car doesn't have is a new car smell. Keep your eyes out for used model. Maybe you'll find it at Audiogon.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,075
Location
Nashville
In terms of performance both are good units. The Bryston somewhat better.

I'll be less kind, No feedback isn't magic, it is bull shite. Despite that the Ayre provides excellent performance. But performance a step below the Bryston in most ways while costing more. I could be more specific, but it can get boring. I'm just referring to THD at levels of output you'll actually use into loads you'll use etc.

Euphonics is something colored in a pleasing way. Most on ASR are going to prefer true fidelity to source. Once you get into colorations everyone's preference is what it is and no arguing with it.

Wide bandwidth alone isn't really helpful, but is often a side effect of getting other attributes right for analog gear.

I suppose my main idea might be, why use a preamp? What will your source components be? You probably can get a DAC/preamp which is as good or better for less money. The dual XLR outputs might be the only impediment.
I think Ayre is going out of business as well. Wouldn't want to be holding on to one of these multi-kilobuck "Rolexes" from a defunct provider.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,075
Location
Nashville
In terms of performance both are good units. The Bryston somewhat better.

I'll be less kind, No feedback isn't magic, it is bull shite. Despite that the Ayre provides excellent performance. But performance a step below the Bryston in most ways while costing more. I could be more specific, but it can get boring. I'm just referring to THD at levels of output you'll actually use into loads you'll use etc.

Euphonics is something colored in a pleasing way. Most on ASR are going to prefer true fidelity to source. Once you get into colorations everyone's preference is what it is and no arguing with it.

Wide bandwidth alone isn't really helpful, but is often a side effect of getting other attributes right for analog gear.

I suppose my main idea might be, why use a preamp? What will your source components be? You probably can get a DAC/preamp which is as good or better for less money. The dual XLR outputs might be the only impediment.
Or why not buy an Octo 8 and get a great 8 channel DAC with individually controllable gain for each channel as well as a master volume with USB and AES/EBU inputs, with a decent headphone amp thrown in? Would undoubtedly cost less than one of those "preamps", and looks pretty "Rolexy" in terms of cosmetics based on the pictures I've seen. And even if he doesn't think he wants of needs the extra channels now, who knows what the future might hold (7 channel surround via JRiver+Octo, or Octo as DAC for a 4 way active speaker system, or even Octo as Preamp for 16 Channel Atmos via two Octos + chaining them together which is part of their feature set).
 
Last edited:

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,424
Likes
4,030
Location
Pacific Northwest
Looking for a solid state analog-only preamp. I like the Benchmark LA4 but would like to have two sets of balanced outputs. ...
Thoughts? Comments? What myths have I missed?
One important thing I've learned reading reviews here is that at 1/4 to 1/2 volume, where we typically listen, the preamp's SNR and SINAD are usually significantly less than at its full output. All good preamps have noise & distortion below audible thresholds at max volume, but this doesn't necessarily remain true when you turn the volume down to an actual listening level. The preamp's gain ratio, where the volume knob will be for typical listening, and how its volume control works, will determine how silent and transparent it is for actual listening.

If I spent big bucks on a preamp the bare minimum requirement is to be absolutely stone cold dead quiet free of noise, hum or hiss with perceptually perfect channel balance (no more than 0.2 dB discrepancy) at all volume settings. That's table stakes, and only then can you begin to talk about the finer points like "how good it sounds". And for that money, you might as well get one with a good built-in DAC because from what we've seen here, it probably won't cost much more.

For an analog preamp that meets these goals (no DAC), something like the Schiit Freya S comes to mind, reviewed here.

But I'd get something equally well engineered, but also having a good built-in DAC too. An RME ADI-2, or something like it. Because, why not get one box that does it all: preamp, headphone amp, and DAC.
 
OP
7

73hadd

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
126
Likes
96
I'm not quite following - what are you trying to accomplish by adding a preamp? Is it to add "bling" rather than sound quality to your system?

-Control multiple analog sources
-Something with warranty (and newer parts, some components have a lifespan)
-I am under the impression that NO digital volume control is actually bit-perfect (also has worse SINAD (than rated) at lower levels, same issue as analog)
-Quoting MRC01 from another thread about "passive" preamps - "We had a recent detailed discussion here about this on another thread. The summary is: a passive preamp can be more transparent than an active, under certain conditions. The conditions are mainly: the passive preamp is well engineered (ladder attenuator with metal film resistors), your upstream sources have low output impedances, your downstream devices have high input impedances, and you use short, low capacitance cables. "
 

Dion_Sinewave

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
55
Likes
52
Personally I can’t recommend a balanced Bryston preamp enough (If you need one) I had one as the centerpiece of my analog section for many years- Exceptional build quality and entirely transparent in my system and experience.
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,424
Likes
4,030
Location
Pacific Northwest
... -I am under the impression that NO digital volume control is actually bit-perfect (also has worse SINAD (than rated) at lower levels, same issue as analog)

-Quoting MRC01 from another thread about "passive" preamps - "We had a recent detailed discussion here about this on another thread. The summary is: a passive preamp can be more transparent than an active, under certain conditions. The conditions are mainly: the passive preamp is well engineered (ladder attenuator with metal film resistors), your upstream sources have low output impedances, your downstream devices have high input impedances, and you use short, low capacitance cables. "
You are right that digital and conventional analog volume controls both show similar behavior: SNR drops 1:1 (more or less) as you turn down the volume. Digital controls have one advantage though: unlike analog controls, they maintain perfect channel balance at all settings.

IMO, the best analog preamp is a passive attenuator -- so long as its input/ouput impedance requirements, and max 1.0 gain, are compatible with the rest of your system. You can't find any active preamp that will be quieter (lower noise), or have perfect channel balance. And it adds no distortion (Amir couldn't measure any with his AP), so it's transparent in the full sense of the word. It's as close as you can get to a straight wire with (negative) gain.

OTOH, just to counter that point, there are some extremely low noise preamps that, while still noisier than a passive at low to moderate volumes, are still so quiet as to be perceptually transparent. And their volume control may maintain channel balance within 1/4 dB which is good enough. Something like a Topping A90. The benefit over a passive is that they buffer the input from output devices, so they don't have the impedance matching or gain requirements that a passive has. And they may also include a headphone amp, which you can't do with a passive.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,075
Location
Nashville
What makes you think Ayre is going out of business?
I looked and may have had them confused with some other upmarket Canadian brand possibly Sonic Frontiers? Seems to me they were in some trouble a few years back.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,297
Likes
5,075
Location
Nashville
One man's euphonic is another's dysphonic. I would go for transparency.

Cheers
Ultimately when you buy a component for its euphony, you wind up finding out it makes Johnny Rotten sound like Tony Bennett and Keith Richards sound like Chet Atkins.
 

jsrtheta

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
936
Likes
991
Location
Colorado
Looking for a solid state analog-only preamp. I like the Benchmark LA4 but would like to have two sets of balanced outputs.

I am more interested and intrigued by these preamps (I do understand that none of the three are in the same price category):

Bryston BP-17 (3)
Ayre KX-5 Twenty

Considerations:

-"The Rolex Factor." Buying a quartz watch might keep better time, but a Rolex is "nicer." This is part of the emotional purchase factor that I hope we try to address on ASR. Not that you can't buy luxury items or have fun, but that information and more facts can help with decisions.

Myths/assumptions:

-"Wide Bandwidth = MAGIC." In looking at the Stereophile measurements of the Ayre and Bryston, the Ayre seems flat from about DC-250khz at 600ohms. Can performance outside the audio bandwidth, affect performance inside the audio range? Or is this an invention of the industry to justify charging thousands more?

-"No Negative Feedback = MAGIC." Audible effects of not using feedback? Sorry I know I am bringing up topics that have been addressed elsewhere, just looking for summaries.

-"Euphonics!" - Deliberate or incidental even order harmonic distortion "sounds better." Maybe not as accurate, but in a double blind test, would people prefer the sound? (Now that I mention that, my brain is struggling to cope with the fact that we discuss preference at all. The context for preference must only be "sales" and the context for accuracy only measurement?)

-"Bits of resolution" - I do miss the days when it was .03 or .003 instead of "bits".... but here is the question. If my content/sources are 16bit, then does it even matter? Sorry, we're back to the difference between "is it better on paper/in measurement" vs. "can you hear the difference." Is there a % distortion in preamps that is agreed upon, below a certain figure, no longer matters?

Thoughts? Comments? What myths have I missed?

Thank you!

Bryston promoted themselves, at least in the '90s, as being manufacturers of pro audio kit. I have never seen Bryston equipment in a studio or on a stage.
I looked and may have had them confused with some other upmarket Canadian brand possibly Sonic Frontiers? Seems to me they were in some trouble a few years back.

Ayre is not Canadian - they're based up the road from me in Niwot, Colorado, near Boulder. They've been in business continuously since 1993.
 

zelig

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
129
Likes
149
Don't do it, dude. Just don't do it. Invest the money in wine, women, and nasal Ajax. It's a myth that these all lead to damnation. Do that and thank me later.
 
Top Bottom