If you're on the west coast you can get the X3700h for around $850 from Video Only stores... if you ask nicely.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Pre-amp mode should behave like the front L/R when disconnected. That would put the SINAD at 98 at 2v when in pre-amp mode on all channels. Correct?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #63
Correct.
I spent way too much time cruising OfferUp and Craigslist for quality used AVRs (and rarely finding them). One thing I discovered is that the number of AVR models produced in the last 20 years is vast. Evolution has reduced the number of brands over this time but there are still a LOT. I don't know how you would pick which of the budget models to review and have more than a few people interested. Also I suspect it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. It would likely become a quest to discover just how bad things can really get. It could quickly become pathetic.
BTW based on this review I'd assume that the lower Denon models would perform similarly if you allow for fewer channels and less overall power.
Yes I meant to stay within Denon since they do have a full range of AVRs. I would also guess that they may perform quite well as they could have a simpler overall design with less features. You do lose out on x32 with the lower budget models but I do wonder how the rest of the hardware performs outside of these extra features.
Like I do feel there are certain thresholds for best bang for your buck depending on the features you want. Like does the S line of receivers get you that 70-80% of let’s say an X3700H, and that X3700H gets you like 70-80% of the X8500 (just using random numbers here).
Of course measurements only show certain things and there are many factors outside of the pure hardware that will affect performance.
I was a bit surprised that Denon released the X3700. I expected the X4700 and thought they would skip a year for the X3700 since the X3600 was just released but maybe the changes between the two were so minimal the amount of investment needed to rev from X3600 to X3700 wasn’t much for them in the end as the measurements show they track fairly close to one another.
Last edited:
Follow the money.
Vasr
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2020
- Messages
- 1,409
- Likes
- 1,924
Main problem with lower models is that you lose on power AND you lose on full pre-outs. So, they are basically disposables without external amp options (except L and R) if you should need more power in the future.
Looks like early to market with 8k (with corresponding increased HDMI capabilities) was the major impetus for the 2020 models to get a jump on the competitors. The 3-series area is a good volume business with faster upgrade cycles and so they seem to have just updated the 3600 with 8k hdmi to ensure that area was covered without a hole. The flagship models have much longer upgrade cycles with lower volumes so they can wait for the 8-series to be updated.
I am surprised they decided to allow the X3700H to disconnect all the preouts too instead of reserving that for the 4000 and up.
The way to go would be individually disconnectable amps, or at least add the center channel to the disconnectable ones.
Amir,
A question for you:
If used as a preamp the Denon 3700 delivers a SINAD around 98dB at 2V. If you associate it with purifi-based power amps which can give SINAD in the range of 105dB, at which SINAD value will you end with the combo Denon+Purifi?
Thanks in advance for your answer
A question for you:
If used as a preamp the Denon 3700 delivers a SINAD around 98dB at 2V. If you associate it with purifi-based power amps which can give SINAD in the range of 105dB, at which SINAD value will you end with the combo Denon+Purifi?
Thanks in advance for your answer
Thanks Amir for the wonderful work that is helping users, but I like to think is also pushing manufacturers to do better.This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199.
Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H:
View attachment 76014
The input selector is plastic and while rotating it feels fine, the plastic feel is a bit jarring because you expect it to be metal. AVRs though are universally used with remote controls so this is just a minor nit.
The back panel has the typical connectors including the single new "8K" capable HDMI Input:
View attachment 76015
The 3700H is lighter than its higher end siblings which I personally appreciated as I lugged it around.
In use, the unit was quite robust, never shutting down no matter how much I pushed its amplification in my standard tests. Other AVRs can be very sensitive, constantly shutting down when pushed, often requiring a power cycle. Not here.
The 3700H does run warm and I will show the thermal imaging of it later.
There is a lot of anticipation for this review as I gave its last year mode, the AVR-X3600H my best rating of any AVR tested. Alas, I reviewed that late in its design cycle so availability is very poor. Hope is that this replacement unit doesn't regress in measured performance while adding features. So let's get into that.
Note: Denon engineering was kind enough to review these measurements and confirm that they match their expectations.
AVR DAC Performance
As usual, when we have pre-amplifier output functionality on an AVR, we feed the unit digital 1 kHz perfect sine wave and see what it outputs in analog domain (amplifiers shut off):
View attachment 76021
Ah, that is a sign of relief. SINAD which is the sum of noise and distortion is in the same ballpark of AVR-X3600H:
View attachment 76020
One to two dB difference is to be expected so no cause for concern. I also tested Coax input (not shown) and it had the same performance.
My standardized tests use 2 volts output but since you can't turn off the amplifiers beyond 2 or all channels, let's see what the performance is like for other output levels before the amplifiers clip and drag down the performance of the DAC subsystem:
View attachment 76022
As you see, peak performance with the amplifiers off is around 1.1 volts with SINAD of 101 dB which is excellent for an AVR. With the amps on, you are OK up to 1.4 volt output before it nose dives. So when selecting an external amplifier for channels beyond fronts, make sure it can output its maximum power at or below 1.4 volts (usually specified as "sensitivity").
Signal to noise ratio is about the same as 3600H as well:
View attachment 76023
32-tone test signal which simulates "music" shows more intermodulation distortion than the 3600H:
View attachment 76024
Here is the 3600H for reference:
The 3700H though evens the match by producing near perfect linearity (accuracy) score:
View attachment 76025
Back to intermodulation distortion, here is how it varies with level:
View attachment 76026
Jitter performance is the same as 3600H in both good and bad ways:
View attachment 76027
Coax/Toslink inputs generate a ton of jitter and spurious sidebands (tones). Levels are very low though so more of a visual distraction than what is audible. HDMI achieves a lower noise floor which indicates the other inputs suffer from random/broadband jitter. However, the HDMI jitter profile is different (blue) showing that better care could be put in there to isolate the DAC from what is around it.
The filter performance is decent:
View attachment 76028
The attenuation here is better than what we get in the higher end AVR-X6700H which is an interesting "reversal of fortunes:" (label on graph is wrong -- should say AVR-X6700H)
Poor attenuation usually makes our broadband distortion+noise versus frequency worse. So good thing the filtering is better in 3700H:
View attachment 76029
HEOS Streaming Performance
Here is a quick test which shows streaming performance to be similar to HDMI/Coax inputs:
View attachment 76044
AVR Amplifier Measurements
I have been testing Denon AVR amplifiers using CD input which I have found to not be digitized allowing us to see the true performance the amplifier rather than any processing blocks. Question has been raised as to what happens when you turn on signal processing such as bass management. Here is the answer:
View attachment 76030
The answer is naturally, the AVR will digitize such analog signals the moment you do that. As it should. Fortunately the Pure Direct button overrides that as show in red graph. Digitization is at high sample rate of 96 kHz which is nice. Note that level changes a bit so be careful if you are doing AB tests.
For the rest of these tests I will be using CD input in pure-direct with speakers set to large.
Here is our usual dashboard with 1 kHz tone again:
View attachment 76031
Denon once again shows that its amplifiers are above average even though many channels are stuffed in a "mass market" product:
View attachment 76032
And within all AVRs tested:
View attachment 76034
I wish the dynamic range was 6 dB better to clear CD at 16 bits (which the 3600H achieved):
View attachment 76033
Crosstalk is a bit disappointing but Ok from audibility point of view:
View attachment 76035
Power output versus distortion and noise which is one of the most important metrics into 4 ohm shows respectable results:
View attachment 76036
Allowing distortion to grown to 1%, we get even more power, continuous or peak:
View attachment 76037
That's good bit of headroom which is nice to have in any amplifier since peaks in music can be momentary.
Switching to 8 ohm load we get to compare our measurements against the company's spec: (label is a typo: should say 3700H)
View attachment 76038
Testing frequency sensitivity with full power sweep we get:
View attachment 76040
This is a bit less tidy than 3600H but still far better than many other amps, specially the switching/Class D ones.
Note that as is typical, power output drops at 20 Hz (orange) which is where you need it most.
AVR Power Scaling with Channels
There is a shared power supply in all of these AVRs so as you turn on more channels, power you get from each channel drops:
View attachment 76039
AVR Heat & Thermal Analysis
Denon & Marantz AVRs tend to run warm especially if used without the ECO mode. The 3700H doesn't get as warm as its larger brothers which is good:
View attachment 76041
Can't figure out why the hot channels are in the middle even though the speaker terminals are all the way to the right. So perhaps that is how they are wired.
Conclusions
What a sigh of relief that the Denon AVR-X3700H performns on par with the later year mode, 3600H. The other "2020 year" Denon AVRs we have tested have had worse performance, leaving the 3600H as the best performing AVR until now. So buy the 3700H with peace of mind knowing that it performs quite well (for an AVR). Of course be mindful of what other features the units above it have which you may want, top of which is more power.
I am happy to add Denon AVR-X3700H to my recommended list.
-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
Get this: money is so tight that I not only have to mow my own lawn, but had to fix the darn riding mower myself!!! Sweating in hot sun, fixed the rusty connections on the solenoid to get it to start reliably. Please rescue me from this misery so I can find other people do such work by donate what you can using : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
..I still have a concern on what seems to be a big limiting factor in AVRs: the room correction chip. I do get that there are too many variables to extract a standard procedure but why not try at least to have a sinad over input voltage level with the plain room correction engaged and nothing else?
It could help trying to push manufacturers to update these chipsets..if you can’t do it, who can?
Last edited:
rvsixer
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Not sure I follow. The X3600 was released in July 2019. The X3700 a year later. Standard yearly release cadence.
Archaea
Active Member
Denon is usually on a two year cadence, not a single. 3 years for flagships, AFAIK.
Furthermore, jdsmoothie, on avsforum who seems to be kind of a Denon information carrier, says the x6700h is now on the same three year flagship cycle too, and won’t be replaced until 2023.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2020-denon-avr-owners-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/
At some point Denon is going to run out of features that generate incentive to buy a new AVR. I think they are nearly there.
I bought the x6700h because I wanted 13 channels. I cannot imagine personally wanting more than 13 channels in my current home theater, so more channels aren’t a draw. New, one off, audio codecs are mostly a bust. IMAX enhanced, Auro 3D, whatever else just around the bend — they will be confined to “also ran” status behind Dolby Atmos and DTS X. Outdated receiver app features can be circumvented by a $50 streaming stick.
Really the last bastions for upgrade incentive are
Better Quality Sound, Better Quality Auto EQ, More/newer HDMI ports. Denon is updating their receiver lines 480p UI to 1080p in the next generation I saw in a Sound United Video on YouTube. So figure that will be the 2022/2023 lineup, but I’m not sure that will make anyone “update” their AVR. I personally don’t see much call for 8k when our human eyes can’t even resolve 4k at normal seating distance. We are at a clear threshold of diminishing returns and I’m quite pleased with the amount of product and “future proofing” I found available in the x6700h for my personal HT “wants”! I have upgraded my AVR on average every 3 years over the last 20 years. My last AVR I kept 4 years (x7200wa). This AVR I expect will last me until I need more than one HDMI 2.1 port, which may be 5 years +.
Denon must be somewhat concerned about this slowing upgrade cycle in their business. Likewise the x3700h for around $1k is very near end game status for a lot of people with its 7.2.4 support. I wonder how Denon HQ plans to address this in their 5 year and 10 year planning meetings.
Last edited:
rvsixer
Addicted to Fun and Learning
X3500H = 2018
X3600H = 2019
X3700H = 2020
4K is easily resolved over HD at standard cinematic seating distances. 8K not so much.
New math is so weird.
This is true.
When they do run out of features and gimmicks, I guess they will simply have to return to the more traditional model of perhaps actually selling what the consumer wants.
Archaea
Active Member
It’s not that simple and you know it. Read the post I linked. Some models in the lineup have been replaced yearly and some aren’t refreshed yearly.
How’s that 4600? Or 1700?
X4500H/X6500H were not replaced in 2019 and S650H, S750H, and X1600H will not be replaced in 2020.
..?rvsixer
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Thread and discussion is about X3x00H. This series appears to be on a one year refresh, not two.
The full lineup:
X3000H = 2013
X3100H = 2014
X3200H = 2015
X3300H = 2016
X3400H = 2017
X3500H = 2018
X3600H = 2019
X3700H = 2020
