Final loudspeaker!

[Jimshoe]

Hi

Currently using ATC SCM25a, and an SVS SB13 Ultra sub, both fed by a Minidisc SHD in a 3m x 4m x 2.3m room

Whilst I like the ATCs (I'm 100% sold on active three-ways) I would ideally like not to have a sub at all and, from reading here, realise ATC's may not be quite as good as I thought (others, like Genelec, Neuman etc) may indeed 'better' them.

I have tried the Genelec 8351B and was very impressed - but they (to me) are so fugly I'm not sure I could live with them. Also, whilst they did amazingly low bass (for their size), they did not have the 'weight' I'd like.

I am planning to have a trial of the Neuman KH420 which I am hoping may give me what I want - a full range active speaker, with some bass weight. Downside they feel like outgoing technology as Neuman are surely about to bring in DSP speaker control (as Genelec and others have done). Yes, I have Dirac and am also reasonable au fait with REW, but I like the idea of dedicated DSP as per the Genelec GLM.

Budget is (reasonably) flexible c.£7,000 and I'm planning on this being my 'destination' loudspeaker.

I'm curious what others here might suggest I try? I'm very drawn to 'professional' monitor type speakers (rather than 'Hi-Fi') and am a wary of the reliability and long term serviceability of current favourites in this area e.g. Dutch and Dutch, Kii etc. I also think they are a bit overpriced.

Thanks in advance

Doug

 

[Chromatischism]

What is the reason you don't want a sub? Is it too hard to set up? Is it the space it takes? Bass emanating from a loudspeaker that can't be moved to minimize room issues is not the path to the best sound.

 

[Zvu]

If you do not want a sub, only thing one could recommend are Kii Three and D&D 8C. Both of them are using advanced driver and leakage port configurations that enable them to control Interaction of frequency response and room better than any other active studio monitor currently available.

 

[Purité Audio]

What is the reason you don't want a sub? Is it too hard to set up? Is it the space it takes? Bass emanating from a loudspeaker that can't be moved to minimize room issues is not the path to the best sound.

As long as the i full-range) speakers are designed to be used close to the front wall and can be adjusted then there isn’t an issue, you can still use subs destructively of course.
Keith

 

[q3cpma]

I'd say the KH420, Genelec's 1237/8A (GLM being a nice thing) or 8361A or D&D's 8C. If you can wait, maybe Buchardt's new active stuff or GGNTKT's M2 could also do.

 

[aac]

Passive loudspeakers are much better as a "final" solution - it is very unlikely that you'll fry a driver, electronics failures are more common.
You can buy something like JBL M2 with a slight stretch of budget, or find a used one.
You can measure/find its DSP settings and then use amplifier of your choice.
Using something as convoluted inside as Kii or D&D (web server for volume control, excuse me?), or even genelec/neumann would be really strange if you seek reliability.
Everything fails, what matters is percentage of failures and ease of replacement.
While you can't know percentage of failures (or MTBF figure), you sure know that replacing separates is easy.

 

[q3cpma]

Passive loudspeakers are much better as a "final" solution - it is very unlikely that you'll fry a driver, electronics failures are more common.
You can buy something like JBL M2 with a slight stretch of budget, or find a used one.
You can measure/find its DSP settings and then use amplifier of your choice.
Using something as convoluted inside as Kii or D&D (web server for volume control, excuse me?), or even genelec/neumann would be really strange if you seek reliability.
Everything fails, what matters is percentage of failures and ease of replacement.
While you can't know percentage of failures (or MTBF figure), you sure know that replacing separates is easy.

Well, but you want the best when it's your "final solution". Don't know about Neumann, but Genelec can even service some speakers that were made 30 years ago; I wouldn't worry with them.

 

[aac]

Well, but you want the best when it's your "final solution". Don't know about Neumann, but Genelec can even service some speakers that were made 30 years ago; I wouldn't worry with them.

And why you think "active" are "best"?

 

[q3cpma]

And why you think "active" are "best"?

See
https://sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm
https://sound-au.com/bi-amp2.htm
https://sound-au.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm
for why active is better. I quote the conclusion about the benefits:
Effectively (up to) twice the 'real' power of the amplifiers themselves
Reduced intermodulation distortion
Elimination of the low frequency passive crossover, its inherent losses, potentially poor linearity and crossover point inaccuracy
Reduction of the difficulty of the load presented to the power amplifier
No padding is required to align the driver sensitivities, so we are not simply wasting power
The damping factor is greatly improved for both the low and midrange loudspeakers
Complete freedom from any interaction between the loudspeaker driver (and its environment) and the crossover network
Cost savings, since complex passive crossover networks are not needed
Bi-wiring is included free!
The flexibility to choose amplifiers which are at their best within a defined frequency range
Ability to match amplifier power to the exact requirements of the drivers for maximum overall efficiency

The cost saving being especially important since this means money invested elsewhere in the design or lower price.

Although I do think that analogue active isn't that revolutionary for the end user, digital active is as it allows for way better crossovers (topologies, custom slopes) and phase/frequency response correction for each sample leaving the factory.
The really important part is the multi-amping, as it is the proper engineering solution, passive crossovers being a band-aid compared to it. It's just the right way to do it, without even considering the (existant) performance advantages.

 

[aac]

See
https://sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm
https://sound-au.com/bi-amp2.htm
https://sound-au.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm
for why active is better. I quote the conclusion about the benefits:
Effectively (up to) twice the 'real' power of the amplifiers themselves
Reduced intermodulation distortion
Elimination of the low frequency passive crossover, its inherent losses, potentially poor linearity and crossover point inaccuracy
Reduction of the difficulty of the load presented to the power amplifier
No padding is required to align the driver sensitivities, so we are not simply wasting power
The damping factor is greatly improved for both the low and midrange loudspeakers
Complete freedom from any interaction between the loudspeaker driver (and its environment) and the crossover network
Cost savings, since complex passive crossover networks are not needed
Bi-wiring is included free!
The flexibility to choose amplifiers which are at their best within a defined frequency range
Ability to match amplifier power to the exact requirements of the drivers for maximum overall efficiency

The cost saving being especially important since this means money invested elsewhere in the design or lower price.

Although I do think that analogue active isn't that revolutionary for the end user, digital active is as it allows for way better crossovers (topologies, custom slopes) and phase/frequency response correction for each sample leaving the factory.
The really important part is the multi-amping, as it is the proper engineering solution, passive crossovers being a band-aid compared to it. It's just the right way to do it, without even considering the (existant) performance advantages.

That is cool, but where is the proof that is audibly important?

 

[Koeitje]

Kii Three seems to be choice here. Little bit over budget I think, but I think that's worth it here.

 

[Zvu]

Passive loudspeakers are much better as a "final" solution - it is very unlikely that you'll fry a driver, electronics failures are more common.
You can buy something like JBL M2 with a slight stretch of budget, or find a used one.
You can measure/find its DSP settings and then use amplifier of your choice.
Using something as convoluted inside as Kii or D&D (web server for volume control, excuse me?), or even genelec/neumann would be really strange if you seek reliability.
Everything fails, what matters is percentage of failures and ease of replacement.
While you can't know percentage of failures (or MTBF figure), you sure know that replacing separates is easy.

I can relate to this.

It is very important, in my opinion, that we realise we're living in a consumer society.

Personally, i'd be very reluctant to pay 10k € for active loudspeakers without warranty at least 10 years and even that is quite short. If that sounds strange, remember that almost every one of us had some 30-40 years old loudspeakers (vintage gear used by our dads and uncles) at some point. I'm having problem imagining 30 years old Kii or D&D working flawlesly except for aesthetic wear by normal use. Drivers and cabinets will last, no question about that - it is electronics that is worrying. From 70's to 90's we had those tanks of receivers, tuners and amplifiers and many of those last today because they are serviceable. I really don't know what to expect from D klass amplifiers done with smd components since even bigher names (B&O icepower, Pascal and Hypex) have relatively high number of failures compared to old guard (Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer, ...).

For a "final loudspeaker" it would be very wise to separate loudspeaker cabinets from electronics.

 

[q3cpma]

That is cool, but where is the proof that is audibly important?

* Effectively (up to) twice the 'real' power of the amplifiers themselves
* Reduction of the difficulty of the load presented to the power amplifier
* No padding is required to align the driver sensitivities, so we are not simply wasting power
* Ability to match amplifier power to the exact requirements of the drivers for maximum overall efficiency
Unless you have an unlimited budget, this is obviously "audible" since you can spend more on the speakers and less on the amplification needed just to offset the losses and load difficulty.

* Reduced intermodulation distortion
Research on distorsion is quite scarce, so I don't think there's anything. But this obviously has the chance to matter at high enough SPL.

* The damping factor is greatly improved for both the low and midrange loudspeakers
Never found anything other than folklore.

* Frequency response correction
Probably audible, very few passive speakers can be as flat as the best DSP based speaker.

* Phase response correction
Mostly inaudible, but nice to have.

I should add that being active allows for nice tricks like active controlled cancellation (to get a cardioid dispersion) like in the Beolab, Kii or GGNTKT. ME Geithain and D&D manage to do it passively, but it's obviously not configurable, unlike the active approach.

 

[aac]

. I really don't know what to expect from D klass amplifiers done with smd components since even bigher names (B&O icepower, Pascal and Hypex) have relatively high number of failures compared to old guard (Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer, ...).

It's fine if it is easily replaceable, they are relatively cheap (if we are talking of $500 amplifier driving a $5k speaker), so I don't see a problem with that.
The trick is that "replaceable" part, which I see with separates and see as much more complicated with built-in.
It's more expensive however, for example JBL 708p vs 708i, i is more expensive, but is the superior choice in terms of sound.

 

[Archsam]

The D&D 8c Studio version has dropped the price below £9000:
https://www.kmraudio.com/dutch-dutch-8c-studio.php

That does make them more attractive compared to the £11,000 'home' version.

 

[Zvu]

@aac That's why i think it would be wise to separate it. Because of ease of repair. No problem if component amplifier dies, you'll just buy a new one.

It is not in question if stuff from active loudspeakers will die but when, and what will be the manufacturers response after 10-15 years.

 

[q3cpma]

OP, you should really read this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-also-be-offered-for-measurement.13437/

The D&D 8c Studio version has dropped the price below £9000:
https://www.kmraudio.com/dutch-dutch-8c-studio.php

That does make them more attractive compared to the £11,000 'home' version.

I'd agree with others about being wary of D&D or Kii if you want a speaker for life. Having a complex and needlessly bloated internal firmware greatly increase the chance of bugs, bugs that could remain if the company goes bankrupt or simply doesn't keep updating the firmware in case of a new model. I concur on the "web server for volume control, excuse me?".

PS: being wary doesn't mean discarding, but I would trust more someone like Genelec who make their own amplifiers and use the entire cabinet as a heatsink. What would be nice, is a plug-and-play amplifier module interface thing where you can buy the replacement from Pascal/ICEpower/Hypex if it goes wrong.

 

[Koeitje]

OP, you should really read this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-also-be-offered-for-measurement.13437/

I'd agree with others about being wary of D&D or Kii if you want a speaker for life. Having a complex and needlessly bloated internal firmware greatly increase the chance of bugs, bugs that could remain if the company goes bankrupt or simply doesn't keep updating the firmware in case of a new model. I concur on the "web server for volume control, excuse me?".

PS: being wary doesn't mean discarding, but I would trust more someone like Genelec who make their own amplifiers and use the entire cabinet as a heatsink. What would be nice, is a plug-and-play amplifier module interface thing where you can buy the replacement from Pascal/ICEpower/Hypex if it goes wrong.

Kii uses their own amplifiers (Bruno designed Hypex NCore...), so what are you on about?

 

[q3cpma]

Kii uses their own amplifiers (Bruno designed Hypex NCore...), so what are you on about?

Not what I meant by this. Hypex and Kii both happened to have Bruno as important member, but the NCore wasn't made for this speaker nor brand. If Hypex stops making the model used in the Kii, this is trouble for you and them, not the case for a company making their own. I also don't know how much of a concern reliability is for Hypex, since I remember them not using very good caps on their modules (Samwha for amp and Su'scon for SMPS); the recent teardown of a 8351B shows a mix of big Samwha and Rubycon.

 

[Hifisound]

@Jimshoe How about Genelec 8260A ?