GGNTKT Model M1

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

There's a question lingering in my mind for some time now. Looking at active speakers in the higher price range I've noticed that the best of the traditional producers (Neumann, Genelec) stick with 3 way systems (KH310, KH420, Genelec One's series) while newer companies (Kii, Grimm Audio, Gegentakt) use 2-way systems (or 2 1/2 in case of the M1). The main arguments for 3-ways over 2-ways are less IMD and better spinorama. I do understand that with a wide baffle and a low reaching tweeter it's possible to get a good spinorama (see JBL M2) but what about IMD?

What were your reasons to stick with a basically 2-way speaker?

Well, it just depends on the size (form factor) and goals (SPL, bandwidth, directivity). There is not better or worse, just a better fitting to the needs.

Neumann uses more than 2-ways when they need more SPL.
Genelec uses more than 2-ways when they need a certain directivity pattern (the ones).
Kii Three actually has four channels – as far as I know – so it's at least a 3.5-way system
Grimm LS1 is also actually a 3-way system, because you need their sub to go full range.
D&D is also a 3-way (+ onboard sub)

Going with more ways is not necessarily a quality feature. In fact it make things more complex and introduces new problems. Going with less ways need special drivers, see JBL M2. I think (good) IMD is just a by-product of a well balanced system.

M1 is a 2.5-way, because the woofer in the back overlay with the 2-way in the front. You could also use a 3-way stetting, for acting just like a sub (which we don't do).

 

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

Roland, how about sending a pair to Amir for review and measurement?

Alternatively sending a pair to sound and recording for anechoic measurements (as a second measure beside the klippel) would be interesting.

I think that could be happen toward the end of year since M1 is on backorder and we try to get on track again (@Purité Audio knows what I'm talking about).

 

[thewas]

Neumann uses more the 2-ways when they need more SPL.
Genelec uses more than 2-ways when they need a certain directivity pattern (the ones).

? The larger Neumann models are 3-way and same also the Genelec Ones.

 

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

Yes, that's what I meant (also the reason).

 

[thewas]

Ah ok, it was typing misunderstanding of your "uses more the 2-ways " while it should be "uses more then 2-ways".

 

[LTig]

Well, it just depends on the size (form factor) and goals (SPL, bandwidth, directivity). There is not better or worse, just a better fitting to the needs.

Neumann uses more than 2-ways when they need more SPL.

The argument is less IMD as far as I remember, but it is related with SPL. Adding a midrange to the smaller 2-ways is probably impracticle.

Genelec uses more than 2-ways when they need a certain directivity pattern (the ones).

Yep. It might be impossible to make a larger coax driver without cutting corners. The midrange acts as wave guide for the tweeter and therefore should not move too much.

Kii Three actually has four channels – as far as I know – so it's at least a 3.5-way system

You're right, the Kii Three is a 3-way and has a 5" mid range driver.

Grimm LS1 is also actually a 3-way system, because you need their sub to go full range.
D&D is also a 3-way (+ onboard sub)

Going with more ways is not necessarily a quality feature. In fact it make things more complex and introduces new problems. Going with less ways need special drivers, see JBL M2. I think (good) IMD is just a by-product of a well balanced system.

M1 is a 2.5-way, because the woofer in the back overlay with the 2-way in the front. You could also use a 3-way stetting, for acting just like a sub (which we don't do).

I think I need to define what I understand what a typical 3-way speaker is: it has a woofer, a tweeter and a specific midrange driver.

• Adding a sub to a 2-way (as with the Grimm LS1) is not what I understand of a typical 3-way since it does not transform the woofer into a special midrange driver,although it helps to reduce IMD when the woofer is relieved from reproducing the lowest lows where extension is highest.
• The Kii Three may be on the border between a 3-way and a 2-way with sub. Do we know the crossover frequency between the 4 woofers and the midrange?
  The same may be true for the D&D 8C; its 8" cone driver is a bit too large for a typical midrange driver (3" to 5"), the reason I think is it must go lower than a typical midrange would be able to. The other two 8" cone drivers are called high excursion subwoofer so I expect them to act as subs only.
• In a 2.5-way the woofer which covers the midrange must reproduce the full bass so I would not expect much improvement regarding reduction of IMD.

Of course, I may be totally wrong.

 

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

• In a 2.5-way the woofer which covers the midrange must reproduce the full bass so I would not expect much improvement regarding reduction of IMD.

Let's put it this way – M1s midrange only needs to do 1/3 of the work in the bass area, because the other two woofers also play in parallel. So there is much EQ involved, that lowers the front drivers excursion and therefore IMD. We found (and measured) that overall there is more benefit to let the front driver also play bass than just the mids. It's part of the concept and it was optimized to work this way.

 

[Soniclife]

The argument is less IMD as far as I remember, but it is related with SPL. Adding a midrange to the smaller 2-ways is probably impracticle.

Yep. It might be impossible to make a larger coax driver without cutting corners. The midrange acts as wave guide for the tweeter and therefore should not move too much.

You're right, the Kii Three is a 3-way and has a 5" mid range driver.

I think I need to define what I understand what a typical 3-way speaker is: it has a woofer, a tweeter and a specific midrange driver.

• Adding a sub to a 2-way (as with the Grimm LS1) is not what I understand of a typical 3-way since it does not transform the woofer into a special midrange driver,although it helps to reduce IMD when the woofer is relieved from reproducing the lowest lows where extension is highest.
• The Kii Three may be on the border between a 3-way and a 2-way with sub. Do we know the crossover frequency between the 4 woofers and the midrange?
  The same may be true for the D&D 8C; its 8" cone driver is a bit too large for a typical midrange driver (3" to 5"), the reason I think is it must go lower than a typical midrange would be able to. The other two 8" cone drivers are called high excursion subwoofer so I expect them to act as subs only.
• In a 2.5-way the woofer which covers the midrange must reproduce the full bass so I would not expect much improvement regarding reduction of IMD.

Of course, I may be totally wrong.

A three way speaker is one where the crossover divides the signal into 3 separate frequency bands, how well that's implemented is a different discussion. Idea's like...

The same may be true for the D&D 8C; its 8" cone driver is a bit too large for a typical midrange driver (3" to 5"), the reason I think is it must go lower than a typical midrange would be able to.

...does not factor in the much lower handover to the tweeter than normal.

 

[Soniclife]

M2 will also have a wide baffle which is 48 cm (apx. 19"), but also very flat (< 20 cm / <8") – so really M1's proportions scaled-up. We found the WAF (woman acceptance factor) very high, because it looks more like a nice piece of furniture and not like a traditional speaker.

This has the potential to be very elegant in room, in a way so many modern floor standers completely get wrong, slim, deep and need to be well away from the walls is a bad real room configuration, where wide, shallow and close to the wall is perfect. That it allows you to fit big drive units makes it even better.

 

[TimVG]

Will these be 'built-to-order' or will there be the option of auditioning them in-home eventually? Seems like a very interesting concept and while I'm intrigued, in this price range I'd prefer to hear (and measure) the benefits compmared to a 'normal' speaker for myself, in my own room, before making a commitment. From the preliminary measurements it looks like it will be a very nice loudspeaker for sure, but I do feel the cardioid settings will be room and placement dependent, hence the slight reservation.

 

[Purité Audio]

We will have demonstration pairs which we install and optimise , ideally keeping the existing system in situ, so one can directly compare.
If you decide to purchase then obviously you decide upon the colour scheme of your pair.
Keith

 

[TimVG]

We will have demonstration pairs which we install and optimise , ideally keeping the existing system in situ, so one can directly compare.
If you decide to purchase then obviously you decide upon the colour scheme of your pair.
Keith

Will see what Roland has to say for the rest of his neighbouring countries

 

[Purité Audio]

Absolutely, hearing the new speakers directly against the old makes for a really valid opinion and to be candid the product then sells itself.
Keith

 

[TimVG]

Absolutely, hearing the new speakers directly against the old makes for a really valid opinion and to be candid the product then sells itself.
Keith

Absolutely. In my small 4x3m room for instance, I can control what happens <100Hz with multiple subwoofers, and above ~400Hz the speakers become dominant - but it's that inbetween 'transition' region that is somewhat harder to get right, even with treatment. It's quite good on paper after EQ, but one never ceases to wonder.

 

[Soniclife]

What is the hiss level from these, I don't think it has been mentioned.

 

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

What is the hiss level from these, I don't think it has been mentioned.

Sorry, I missed this one:
At 0,5m it should be dead quiet. But because of the high efficiency of the tweeter (compression driver), we had to take some special modifications. But you might hear a little hiss if you put you ear literaly next to the tweeter, but that's the same with most active speakers.

 

[gr-e]

But because of the high efficiency of the tweeter (compression driver), we had to take some special modifications.

Are you using a passive circuit instead of DSP to attenuate the tweeter?

 

[roland{at}GGNTKT]

Are you using a passive circuit instead of DSP to attenuate the tweeter?

Actually we are using both.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

We will have demonstration pairs which we install and optimise , ideally keeping the existing system in situ, so one can directly compare.
If you decide to purchase then obviously you decide upon the colour scheme of your pair.
Keith

Sounds like you need to open up a branch dealership in Nashville, Tn.

 

[Purité Audio]

Wouldn’t that be grand, every other musician on the planet appears to live in Nashville.
Keith