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Time Domain measurements?

Absolute

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I plan to send a pair of my speakers to Amir. Then you can compare to others that have being measured here before. On the other hand most of my customers are privat and non of them has ever demanded that I provide off axis measurements. I have the means to do that though.
This would be awesome if you did.
I'm not surprised that no customer ever asked about off-axis measurements, but it's a shame they don't since that's the main ingredient of the sound that they're hearing in-room.

Your designs look intriguing and special, so really hope you send one of them in for review :)
 

Joachim Gerhard

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This is marketing blurb. I myself am not a salesman. Other people do that for me.
 

haraldo

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I'd really like to see the modern day evolution of the Audio Physic Avanti III, this is something that I experienced takes the best of the principles of very narrow baffle loudspekers (like Virgo II and Virgo III) to the next level, the narrow baffle and the 4 sidemounted woofers work exceedingly well... as I previously stated in this thread, I believe this may be the best bass I ever heard.... (Avanti III + 4 subwoofers)

I tend to prefer several smaller woofers more than one or larger ones ... I think the midbass seem better and more tight (faster?)
Anyways you have the sub's to deal with the very low end

Avanti III.jpg
 
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haraldo

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This would be awesome if you did.
I'm not surprised that no customer ever asked about off-axis measurements, but it's a shame they don't since that's the main ingredient of the sound that they're hearing in-room.

Your designs look intriguing and special, so really hope you send one of them in for review :)

I think just the same imortant is the level of absorption of different frequencies, if the absorption is uneven across the frequency band, the frequency response of first and second reflections will be different and I assume the balance of the speakers will become incorrect :)
There is no room correction or equalization which can address that!
 
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Absolute

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I think just the same imortant is the level of absorption of different frequencies, if the absorption is uneven across the frequency band, the frequency response of first and second reflections will be different and I assume the balance of the speakers will become incorrect :)
There is no room correction or equalization which can address that!
While that is important when you first decide to absorb first reflections, it's still extremely important with good off-axis response because otherwise the sound balance will shift when you move your head.

We don't want the seat to the left and right to have a different tonal balance than the main LP. Or worse, the left and right ear :D
 

haraldo

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While that is important when you first decide to absorb first reflections, it's still extremely important with good off-axis response because otherwise the sound balance will shift when you move your head.

We don't want the seat to the left and right to have a different tonal balance than the main LP. Or worse, the left and right ear :D

I think we agree here :)

EDIT: Paolo Tesson at Sonus Faber claimed that the off axis response of the tweeter is essential to "the magic" of the speaker, if the tweeter is too directional above 10KHz you will easily loose some of the magic .... according to Tesson
 

haraldo

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While that is important when you first decide to absorb first reflections, it's still extremely important with good off-axis response because otherwise the sound balance will shift when you move your head.

We don't want the seat to the left and right to have a different tonal balance than the main LP. Or worse, the left and right ear :D

Although I don't care that much if the sweet spot is that narrow, some of the large MTM towers of Duntech vere 100% time coherent and sounds great, within a very very narrow sweet-spot, to the point that they are called headphones, because only one person can listen at a time.

I don't know if that is because of directivity or that you lose the time-coherence when you move sideways (they are not time-coherent off axis)
 

Absolute

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I think we agree here :)

EDIT: Paolo Tesson at Sonus Faber claimed that the off axis response of the tweeter is essential to "the magic" of the speaker, if the tweeter is too directional above 10KHz you will easily loose some of the magic .... according to Tesson
Interesting. If that's the case, then we'll all have much to gain with supertweeters with broad dispersion. My current speakers don't have much output or dispersion above 10 khz, but it never bothered me due to the lack of energy above 10 khz in music.

Did he say what he thinks is too directional? Most Sonus Fabers are quite directional at that point.
 

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haraldo

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Interesting. If that's the case, then we'll all have much to gain with supertweeters with broad dispersion. My current speakers don't have much output or dispersion above 10 khz, but it never bothered me due to the lack of energy above 10 khz in music.

Did he say what he thinks is too directional? Most Sonus Fabers are quite directional at that point.

I think this direction of soft domes started with the Aida ....

There were some earlier SF speakers that employed ring radiators and also beryllium tweeters but no more .... according to Tesson, the soft domes with the arrow point in front suppsedly aids in this. It's said that in general the ring radiators and beryllium tweeters have narrower dispersion, which is why they use the soft domes with the arrow point; I am not sure yet if I think there is something to this or if this is marketing talk ....

I tried to look at graphs of lots of tweeters and see if I can find any good pattern to this; It seems thought that in general a beryllium tweeter has narrower dispersion above 10 KHz than soft domes, but then there are lots of other things; The beryllium and diamond tweeters that I have heard on different speakers have all been doing very well .... so I don't know what to think ...

I never tried myself with supertweeters but hear that some people have good results with some speakers and less so with other speakers; I am trying to figure out why this could be, if this is a fact or what is going on here :rolleyes:
 

Absolute

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The first thing to look at is the tweeter size. The size of a driver will determine at what frequency it will start to beam because wide dispersion simply means the wavelengths are big relative to the driver size.

The Aida actually starts to beam around 7 khz.

918SFAidafig3.jpg


As shown by the plot of the Aida's lateral dispersion, normalized to the tweeter-axis response (fig.3), this plateau will compensate for the fact that the tweeter starts to become directional above 7kHz, which would otherwise make the speaker sound a bit lacking in top-octave air in large or overdamped rooms.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker-measurements


Yeah, I think it's marketing talk. But I'm a cynical bastard :)
 

haraldo

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The first thing to look at is the tweeter size. The size of a driver will determine at what frequency it will start to beam because wide dispersion simply means the wavelengths are big relative to the driver size.

The Aida actually starts to beam around 7 khz.

View attachment 74318

As shown by the plot of the Aida's lateral dispersion, normalized to the tweeter-axis response (fig.3), this plateau will compensate for the fact that the tweeter starts to become directional above 7kHz, which would otherwise make the speaker sound a bit lacking in top-octave air in large or overdamped rooms.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker-measurements


Yeah, I think it's marketing talk. But I'm a cynical bastard :)

If what Tesson say is true, I assume it should be very easy to measure and visible on graphs like the above ....
I wouldn't be fighting your claim that it could be marketing bull ....
 

haraldo

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There is one thing I don't understand, whether this is a timing issue, dispersion issue, or something completely different... I never got a credible explanation to this

Some speakers that feature state-of-the-art AMT or Ribbon tweeters seem to have some sort of disconnection between tweeter and mid, up to the point that I have a feeling that the drivers are playing two completely different songs. I have heard this very clearly on some of the older Audrivector models, but it seems like this issue may not be there anymore to the same extent.

Did anyone in here experience these things, and what the heck is this?
 

Absolute

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There is one thing I don't understand, whether this is a timing issue, dispersion issue, or something completely different... I never got a credible explanation to this

Some speakers that feature state-of-the-art AMT or Ribbon tweeters seem to have some sort of disconnection between tweeter and mid, up to the point that I have a feeling that the drivers are playing two completely different songs. I have heard this very clearly on some of the older Audrivector models, but it seems like this issue may not be there anymore to the same extent.

Did anyone in here experience these things, and what the heck is this?
Yes, many times I've had that experience. I landed on this conclusion; frequency response.

Most AMT/Ribbon speakers have elevated highs for some reason, perhaps because of limited dispersion in the vertical dimension or to create the illusion of air and sparkle? Interestingly the AMTs in the most recent Monitor Audio Platinum-series have been known to be a little laid-back. Looking at the frequency response between those and some Audiovectors, you'll begin to see a picture;

Monitor Audio Platinum II
monitor audio platinum III.jpg


Audiovector SR3 Arrete
audiovector sr3 arrete.jpg


Piega 701w
piega 701w.jpg


Goldenear something;
goldenear.jpg
 

Joachim Gerhard

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AMTs have quite high moving mass and rarely go higher then 20kHz. I prefer real ribbons or good magnetostatics. They have more resolution for my ears and measurements.
 

fosti

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AMTs have quite high moving mass and rarely go higher then 20kHz. I prefer real ribbons or good magnetostatics. They have more resolution for my ears and measurements.
What ist resolution in your ears and measurements. I agree that AMTs, Ribbons an Magnostats are quite special in their dispersion. But I don't get your point! Please explain! A high mass has not necessarily to be bad. Show us in amplitude and phase diagrams the negative sides of AMTs regarding your suspicions to AMTs
 
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Joachim Gerhard

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Here is an AMT against a ribbon. You see that the ribbon is more extended over 20kHz and has more sensitivity.
One reason is the very low moving mass. That is more resolution to me.
 

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Joachim Gerhard

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In this case the AMT is also more expensive.
one way to measure resolution is distortion measurements at very low volume.
 

haraldo

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Yes, many times I've had that experience. I landed on this conclusion; frequency response.

Most AMT/Ribbon speakers have elevated highs for some reason, perhaps because of limited dispersion in the vertical dimension or to create the illusion of air and sparkle? Interestingly the AMTs in the most recent Monitor Audio Platinum-series have been known to be a little laid-back. Looking at the frequency response between those and some Audiovectors, you'll begin to see a picture;

Monitor Audio Platinum II
View attachment 74642


Audiovector SR3 Arrete
View attachment 74643

Piega 701w
View attachment 74644


Goldenear something;
View attachment 74645

It's interesting but I can't say I am sure I can always relate it to frequency respons.... I auditioned the whole piega coax line up through the master series to the Master Line Source ... and I can't say I can hear the same issues here.... there are other things with Piega though, I am not sure I like the sound of a grand piano, a Steinway Model D sounds not fully real (that is my subjective opinion)
Maybe these are phase related issues, the harmonics may be out of phase ...

Piega Coax 711 also show this rising trend ....
Coax 711 - 1.jpg


Piega writes on their webpage: Furthermore: As our ribbon systems ensure that the direct sound components and the sound reflected from the surfaces of the room always reach the listeners in the correct phase
So much for that claim o_O
I don't like when a "credible" speaker manufacturer tell me rubbish
Coax 711 - 2.jpg
 
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fosti

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And you think with a simple EQ to equal curves you will hear a difference despite the maybe differences in dispersion??? No way....
 
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