• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Horns - Necessary to complete the Audiophile Journey?

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,220
Likes
24,188
Could you elaborate on what was wrong with the 511 horn? Just curious because that's the horns I have. I know they have issues with the walls of the horn "ringing" if not damped (which is what I have done). They were made light because, if heavier, they would be more difficult to move and rig in a typical commercial installation. With the 1/2" Aquaplas / Bondo coating on mine, they are damn heavy.
Well, opinions and experiences vary, the ringing is the fundamental issue. Many folks do feel that the 511 does OK as long as its not used anywhere near 500 Hz. I think crossed at 1 kHz, they're OK.
My favorite 511B discussion, which led me, inexorably, to the WE/Altec 32 family and the EMILAR EH-500-2 (the latter being my current treble horn) was at AA a while back (FWIW... and way off topic for this forum!):
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=176663&highlight=EMILAR+mhardy6647&search_url=/default.mpl?searchtext=EMILAR&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=mhardy6647&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&ip=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&sortRank=Forum&forum=hug

DSC_6853 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

DSC_6191 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

An instant master class on the 32 horn family (with a little EMILAR thrown in, too) :)
https://electravolt.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-tale-of-three-horns-variations-of.html
http://jelabs.blogspot.com/2016/02/altec-32b-horn-redux.html
http://jelabs.blogspot.com/2018/02/altec-32a-32b-emilar-eh1210-eh800-eh500.html
 
Last edited:

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Well, opinions and experiences vary, the ringing is the fundamental issue.
I discovered the ringing problem decades ago because on one recording with a flute solo, it would set off horrible ringing. That's when I applied 1/2" thick Aquaplas to the exterior which made them extremely "dead" to the knuckle test. The resonance problems disappeared. I run an electronic 24dB/octave crossover at 500Hz with no complaints. I have noticed that with the 802D drivers, the dowel pins which locate the diaphram aren't as accurate as they could be. I enlarged the holes in the diaphram ring which engage these pins and center the diaphram manually using a 400Hz tone (JBL diaphrams are centered in this manner).
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,281
Location
Oxford, England
You can also tweak corner Klipschs with circular or elliptical mouth horns f.e. by Auto-Tech (from GPoint Audio in the US).

Years ago I bought a used pair of Consonance Barque 12s to play with, replaced the original radial wood horns with a pair of cf400 tractrixs from Stereo-Lab and added a horn tweeter from Visaton and the improvement in performance was significant. I'd probably have done the same had I bought a pair of K-horns. I haven't given up on the idea of going for the corners but I need to settle somewhere first.
 
Last edited:

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
You can also tweak corner Klipschs with circular or elliptical mouth horns f.e. by Auto-Tech (from GPoint Audio in the US).
There are a number of companies that offer "upgrades" for the various Klipsch Heritage models. The good folks at Volti Audio started business as upgraders of Klipsch Heritage models and later expanded into full speaker manufacturers of their own. Their TOTL Vittora model is still a La Scala look-a-like taken to their idea of a SOTA design.
I've heard the Rival mid-line model at a couple shows now and was highly impressed. I wish them luck.
RivalT1walnut2.jpg

red-gum-vittora.png
 

Totoro

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
94
Likes
67
Location
Boston, MA
Last edited:

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
I have a pair of @Duke speakers and love them.

Thank you very much, Totoro!

I think your pair is unique. I was making a stand-mount speaker with the same drivers and crossover, but offering it with a Swarm subwoofer system, instead of putting the 15 in a big enough box to reach down fairly low. I don't remember the details but for whatever reason we arrived at the solution you have for your situation.

Looks like yours have Speakon inputs - I had forgotten that!

That was a while back. I'm thrilled to hear you still "love" them!!

(edit: Not sure why the images are in this order; I posted the front image first. Oh well.)

Planetarium Delta Floorstander Rear.JPG
Planetarium Delta Floorstander Front.JPG
 
Last edited:

Totoro

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
94
Likes
67
Location
Boston, MA
Thank you very much, Totoro!

I think your pair is unique. I was making a stand-mount speaker with the same drivers and crossover, but offering it with a Swarm subwoofer system, instead of putting the 15 in a big enough box to reach down fairly low. I don't remember the details but for whatever reason we arrived at the solution you have for your situation.

Looks like yours have Speakon inputs - I had forgotten that!!

That was a while back. I'm thrilled to hear you still "love" them!!

View attachment 72928View attachment 72927
I think the main thing was I already had subs and have two 22 ish pound cats I don’t trust with stand mounts. As it is they perch on these a lot. Also I had a home built UCD 180 amp with speakons.
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
I think the main thing was I already had subs and have two 22 ish pound cats I don’t trust with stand mounts. As it is they perch on these a lot. Also I had a home built UCD 180 amp with speakons.

My 22 pound cat helped with quality control on your speakers, thoroughly inspecting the interior bracing, but he has since moved on to that big cathouse in the sky. Glad to hear yours find them useful!
 
Last edited:

Totoro

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
94
Likes
67
Location
Boston, MA
My 22 pound cat helped with quality control on your speakers, but has since moved on to that big cathouse in the sky. Glad to hear yours find them useful!
Yeah that was along time ago. My cats are 14 now. Maybe that was 12 years ago or so?
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
Yeah that was along time ago. My cats are 14 now. Maybe that was 12 years ago or so?

That sounds about right to me.

Good to cross paths with you again, Totoro my friend!
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,409
Location
Seattle Area, USA

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
Are those horns?

Unless I'm seeing the wrong thing via Google, they look like not.

My guess is that Google got it wrong. My company is "AudioKinesis". Try Googling: audiokinesis loudspeakers, and then click on "Images". Most of the ones with horns are mine, whether home audio or prosound. The stand-mount with the round wooden horn is my most recent.

Edit: Ah, I see now that you were typing while I was. I googled "Duke loudspeakers" and what came up wasn't me.
 
Last edited:

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
Most of the ones with horns are mine, whether home audio or prosound. The stand-mount with the round wooden horn is my most recent.
Some very handsome craftsmanship there, very nice!!!
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,281
Location
Oxford, England
There are a number of companies that offer "upgrades" for the various Klipsch Heritage models. The good folks at Volti Audio started business as upgraders of Klipsch Heritage models and later expanded into full speaker manufacturers of their own. Their TOTL Vittora model is still a La Scala look-a-like taken to their idea of a SOTA design.
I've heard the Rival mid-line model at a couple shows now and was highly impressed. I wish them luck.
RivalT1walnut2.jpg

One problem of classic Klipschs is driver mis-alignment, they're not time-coherent (Volti's own Rival is not either by the way):

719KF3-fig7.jpg

Turning to the time domain, the Forte III's step response is complicated.
All three drive-units appear to be connected in inverted acoustic polarity, with the tweeter's output—the sharp down/up spike at 3.8ms—arriving first at the microphone.
The output of the midrange unit is the lazier downward spike just before 4.5ms followed by the slow rise of the woofer's output.
The decay of the midrange unit's step smoothly blends with that of the woofer, suggesting optimal crossover design.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-forte-iii-loudspeaker-measurements

This could be easily addressed with a digital crossover or not so easily by moving the horns forward in the cabinet as this would require a redesign of the speaker enclosure and at this point you be better off buying beeter drivers and having someone build a new cabinet for you. I could be wrong but I don't think that analogue crossovers are very good at delaying...
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
Some very handsome craftsmanship there, very nice!!!

Thank you Sal!

I assume you are talking about the one with the wooden horn... which is technically an Oblate Spheroid waveguide. So it's actually among the more geeky types of horns.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,409
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Do the big wooden Tannoys with one driver count as horns given the shape and coincident / coaxial nature?
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,523
Likes
3,745
Location
Princeton, Texas
Do the big wooden Tannoys with one driver count as horns given the shape and coincident / coaxial nature?

In my opinion they do, though I can see arguments both ways.

The woofer cone acts as a shallow horn for the tweeter's output, constraining its coverage to approximately the angle of the cone itself. Assuming the crossover frequency is about where woofer's dispersion matches the "horn's" coverage angle, the radiation pattern is probably exceptionally uniform from the crossover region on up. Which in my opinion is very good.

As with just about everything in speaker design there are tradeoffs, in my opinion at least. Personally I'd prefer to keep bass excursions out of the tweeter's "horn", like some of the more modern Tannoys do with their dedicated woofers.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,409
Location
Seattle Area, USA
In my opinion they do, though I can see arguments both ways.

The woofer cone acts as a shallow horn for the tweeter's output, constraining its coverage to approximately the angle of the cone itself. Assuming the crossover frequency is about where woofer's dispersion matches the "horn's" coverage angle, the radiation pattern is probably exceptionally uniform from the crossover region on up. Which in my opinion is very good.

As with just about everything in speaker design there are tradeoffs, in my opinion at least. Personally I'd prefer to keep bass excursions out of the tweeter's "horn", like some of the more modern Tannoys do with their dedicated woofers.

Don't some of the bigger ones use transmission line bass?
 
Top Bottom