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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

rccarguy

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What are you doing to avoid COVID?

I feel confident Denon loses no sleep over .5% of users that only use two speakers and send a multi-channel signal to their AV receiver. It's not possible to make a product that suits 100% of individual needs. Ever. And if you feel you have such a set up, why are you commenting here?

They make perfectly good and affordable integrated amps for two channel use. An AVR is designed to perform in multi-channel settings. It just so happens the new Denon's perform very well in 2CH playback when set up properly.

But two channel amps lack bass management, room eq, hdmi, DD/DTS decoding.


I got rid of a lexicon mc-1, arcam 9 integrated, hdmi switch in favour of a avr.

I think it's more likely the lower end models will be used with 2.0 or 2.1 system.


I doubt someone would buy 8500 and use it as a two channel amp.

Why people are defending a botched channel mapping on a system where highly likely to be used is daft. This should be fixable in Firmware
 

Daniel0

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Yes, I tested it with Roon and get the same performance as HDMI. Note that Airplay is 16 bits so the best it can do, is what this AVR does (SINAD of 96 dB).
I would suggest to include the network performance in future Reviews since most AVRs use lower quality DACs for network.
Maybe use a simple note like "performance is similar to x" or a graph if something is worse.

It is unclear if the Denons can play 24bit files over DLNA because the manual only says up to 192kHz, but if they can we could see how much worse the low quality network DACs are compared to the main DACs.
 

mcdull

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Plenty of people just use two speakers or 2.1 with a AVR.

To defend a bug just because it's not as common as 5.1 + systems is absurd.

I've used my avr with stereo speakers for long while, and just use the downmixing mode.

Why would a change my avr to a hdmi switcher, a dac, and a stereo integrated amp as that is what a avr combines

I feel the same when I saw comment in X3600H review that saying the component inputs are useless.
I still have my modded original Xbox using component/toslink to my AVR, the first game console doing 1080i and 5.1ch.
Also, a Wii using component input (2ch so can get away with ARC from my TV which also has component). I wish there is a D-Sub for my Dreamcast too, which is now connected directly to the TV.
There are many different ways people are using AVR.
 

tparm

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Yes and no. Looks like HDMI protocol differentiates between stereo input and multi-channel input with content only in two channels. The issue is with the latter but not the former.

But the latter can happen at the source for many reasons even for playing 2 channel content. Some uses I have encountered in my long audio journey - use of DTS Connect or Dolby Live at the source where everything goes out as 5.1. Not wanting to configure every source as stereo when they play mixed sources but use the AVR downmixing instead, especially on a PC to avoid Windows Media Engine to come in the way which would make it worse, etc. There are a lots more scenarios like that. Collectively, they may or may not be significant. We don't have statistics to show one way or the other.


I really wish people would quit posting "most people do or do not.." unless they are involved in the marketing arm of a company measuring usage metrics t have first hand knowledge of the exact target audience. Otherwise, it will just be confirmation bias at best and blind partisanship at worst and settles nothing.

A bug is a bug is a bug. It has been encountered and Denon will hopefully fix it.

I wish this could be more of a technical discussion than whether Denon is good or bad seen through partisan/biased eyes.
I think Denon is good.
 

carlob

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I feel the same when I saw comment in X3600H review that saying the component inputs are useless.
I still have my modded original Xbox using component/toslink to my AVR, the first game console doing 1080i and 5.1ch.
Also, a Wii using component input (2ch so can get away with ARC from my TV which also has component). I wish there is a D-Sub for my Dreamcast too, which is now connected directly to the TV.
There are many different ways people are using AVR.

I totally disagree with this way of thinking. I have somewhere an old VHS player with a Scart plug, does it mean that AVRs should have a scart input? How many years back should we support obsolete connections? Buy a new xbox, it's about time. Or buy an adapter.
 

peng

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Yes and no. Looks like HDMI protocol differentiates between stereo input and multi-channel input with content only in two channels. The issue is with the latter but not the former.

But the latter can happen at the source for many reasons even for playing 2 channel content. Some uses I have encountered in my long audio journey - use of DTS Connect or Dolby Live at the source where everything goes out as 5.1. Not wanting to configure every source as stereo when they play mixed sources but use the AVR downmixing instead, especially on a PC to avoid Windows Media Engine to come in the way which would make it worse, etc. There are a lots more scenarios like that. Collectively, they may or may not be significant. We don't have statistics to show one way or the other.

I really wish people would quit posting "most people do or do not.." unless they are involved in the marketing arm of a company measuring usage metrics t have first hand knowledge of the exact target audience. Otherwise, it will just be confirmation bias at best and blind partisanship at worst and settles nothing.

A bug is a bug is a bug. It has been encountered and Denon will hopefully fix it.

I wish this could be more of a technical discussion than whether Denon is good or bad seen through partisan/biased eyes.

I agreed with you on most everything you said, but I got the feeling that the way people (some members, not Amir) might have led to believe that if they use this AVR for two channels and in the speaker configuration menu they configure it for front left/right, with others selected "none), then they are affected by this bug if they use the HDMI input and play two channel media contents. Reality is, not necessarily, it depends.

Based on Amir's responses in the posts below, to questions related to the 2 channel scenario:

Post#11 Question by MZKM:

If you set the HDMI output to 2ch and you set the amp to 2ch, is the performance equally as good

Post#14 Replied by Amir

Correct. I should have noted in that in the review.

Amir

Post#29 Question by RichB:
Is there still a possible issue for folks that buy this AVR and use it for 2-channel with an HDMI input?
I have done that in the past to get the features.

- Rich

Post#39 replied by Amir

It is fine if your source device advertises itself as 2 channel. I tested streaming using Roon for example to AVR-X4700 and it was fine.

Amir

So yes a bug is a bug and need to be fixed. The thread is getting long really quickly so I just want to highlight the fact that while waiting for the fix, the user can avoid the bad effects of this bug by paying attention to post#11, 14, and 39. And I am posting on this topic only because I got the sense that at least some users seem to think using this AVR for 2 channel with an HDMI input will suffer from this issue, as post#29 indicated.

It would have been better if Amir mentioned this on page one, as part of the review.
 

peng

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I would suggest to include the network performance in future Reviews since most AVRs use lower quality DACs for network.
Maybe use a simple note like "performance is similar to x" or a graph if something is worse.

It is unclear if the Denons can play 24bit files over DLNA because the manual only says up to 192kHz, but if they can we could see how much worse the low quality network DACs are compared to the main DACs.

Don't forget Denon and Marantz use the PCM5100A for the network playback. That IC has lower specs so don't expect any more than 90 dB SINAD or so. The difference won't be audible to a lot of people but I would like D+M to standardize on at last the same AK4458. Yamaha also used a different DAC for the network and USB but the PCM5101 they use is a little better.
 

Dj7675

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So yes a bug is a bug and need to be fixed. The thread is getting long really quickly so I just want to highlight the fact that while waiting for the fix, the user can avoid the bad effects of this bug by paying attention to post#11, 14, and 39. And I am posting on this topic only because I got the sense that at least some users seem to think using this AVR for 2 channel with an HDMI input will suffer from this issue, as post#29 indicated.

It would have been better if Amir mentioned this on page one, as part of the review.
This is a good idea. Summarizing in the review what real world setups the bug would show up.
 

rxp

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So confused with this now.

Windows is a mess with channel mapping. If you choose 5.1/7.1 or Dolby Atmos for Home Theater anything that's 2 channel, like say YouTube videos, are played by the AVR in "all channel stereo". I have to manually select stereo on my SR6011 to get proper stereo output.

Bitstream should be fine.

Even PCM will be fine with things like LAV - LAV can add silent channels so shouldn't cause an issue with the AVR.

But I'm still confused by stereo - will selecting 2 channels in Windows on my 5.1.4 cause an issue? If it does, my hearing acuity must be particularly poor because I've not heard the issue.
 

Gedeon

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Don't forget Denon and Marantz use the PCM5100A for the network playback. That IC has lower specs so don't expect any more than 90 dB SINAD or so. The difference won't be audible to a lot of people but I would like D+M to standardize on at last the same AK4458. Yamaha also used a different DAC for the network and USB but the PCM5101 they use is a little better.

I don't understand it. The AKMs DACs aren't used when playing through HEOS ???

As far as I know all sources can go through internal dsps (room correction/bass managent...) and to the AKM DACs ...

From which source did you get that info ?
 

peng

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But two channel amps lack bass management, room eq, hdmi, DD/DTS decoding.


I got rid of a lexicon mc-1, arcam 9 integrated, hdmi switch in favour of a avr.

I think it's more likely the lower end models will be used with 2.0 or 2.1 system.


I doubt someone would buy 8500 and use it as a two channel amp.

Why people are defending a botched channel mapping on a system where highly likely to be used is daft. This should be fixable in Firmware

I don't think anyone is defending it as I have the impression that we all want a FW update fix.
 

peng

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I don't understand it. The AKMs DACs aren't used when playing through HEOS ???

As far as I know all sources can go through internal dsps (room correction/bass managent...) and to the AKM DACs ...

From which source did you get that info ?

Service manuals, but not 100% sure about the 2020 models. Hard to imagine the would be different, and in fact someone posted a photo of a PCB board for the X4700H that clearly show 3 PCM5100A chips on board.
 

Krobar

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So confused with this now.

Windows is a mess with channel mapping. If you choose 5.1/7.1 or Dolby Atmos for Home Theater anything that's 2 channel, like say YouTube videos, are played by the AVR in "all channel stereo". I have to manually select stereo on my SR6011 to get proper stereo output.

Bitstream should be fine.

Even PCM will be fine with things like LAV - LAV can add silent channels so shouldn't cause an issue with the AVR.

But I'm still confused by stereo - will selecting 2 channels in Windows on my 5.1.4 cause an issue? If it does, my hearing acuity must be particularly poor because I've not heard the issue.

Silent channels are part of the problem and adding silent channels is usually a bodge.

I think a lot of it depends on your playback software. Kodi when setup correctly using WASAPI for example will match the number of PCM channels to the source and bitstream for appropriate sources.
 

Gedeon

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Service manuals, but not 100% sure about the 2020 models. Hard to imagine the would be different, and in fact someone posted a photo of a PCB board for the X4700H that clearly show 3 PCM5100A chips on board.

Are you sure those are really used as DACs for main channels when playing from HEOS but AKMs when digital input is used (HDMI… Tos-link) ?

It doesn't make too much sense for me. Maybe those are used for extra Atmos channels...
 
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Daniel0

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Don't forget Denon and Marantz use the PCM5100A for the network playback. That IC has lower specs so don't expect any more than 90 dB SINAD or so. The difference won't be audible to a lot of people but I would like D+M to standardize on at last the same AK4458. Yamaha also used a different DAC for the network and USB but the PCM5101 they use is a little better.
We read the Reviews because we want to have the numbers, if it's audible is another story. This also highlights some areas of improvement, especially on more expensive models like the X8500H or AV8805 which uses the same low-spec DACs for network.
I think network performance should be included in the future since people tend to use the integrated Multiroom/Streaming-Features of modern AVRs more and more.
 

Daniel0

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Are you sure those are really used as DACs for main channels when playing from HEOS but AKMs when digital input is used (HDMI… Tos-link) ?

It doesn't make too much sense for me. Maybe those are used for extra Atmos channels...
It is a known fact AVRs use lower quality DACs for network/streaming/multiroom functionality. Main DACs are only used for HDMI/optical/coax.
Some companies like Yamaha even use 3 different kind of DACs. Best quality on main 5/7 channels, lower quality on heights and even lower quality on network etc.
 

Gedeon

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But two channel amps lack bass management, room eq, hdmi, DD/DTS decoding.


I got rid of a lexicon mc-1, arcam 9 integrated, hdmi switch in favour of a avr.

I think it's more likely the lower end models will be used with 2.0 or 2.1 system.


I doubt someone would buy 8500 and use it as a two channel amp.

Why people are defending a botched channel mapping on a system where highly likely to be used is daft. This should be fixable in Firmware


I understand the logic but ... ¿ How would you down - mix 8 channels at full level to 2 channels avoiding clipping with no "metadata" from those sources ? ¿ How many setups would face that kind of use ?
 

peng

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Are you sure those are really used as DACs for main channels when playing from HEOS but AKMs when digital input is used (HDMI… Tos-link) ?

It doesn't makes too much sense for me. Maybe those are used for extra Atmos channels...
I don't understand it. The AKMs DACs aren't used when playing through HEOS ???

As far as I know all sources can go through internal dsps (room correction/bass managent...) and to the AKM DACs ...

From which source did you get that info ?

Iirc Z1, Z2, and network each has its own 2 channel DAC, the PCM5100A. The two 8 channel DAC, the AK4458 are used for the 13 main channels. You can take my word for it, or ask @bigguyca who may be willing to confirm the same because I believe he has access to some SMs, probably including the X3600H. The last SM I have browsed though was the X4500H, so I can't say the same for the X4700H except going by the posted photos, that there are 3 PCM5100A, so it makes sense to assume it has the same arrangement of one each for Z1, Z2 and network.

You can purchase the SM for the X3600H (a little more than $10 going by memory) to see if for yourself, but I don't think the SMs for the 2020 models are available yet.
 

Gedeon

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It is a known fact AVRs use lower quality DACs for network/streaming/multiroom functionality. Main DACs are only used for HDMI/optical/coax.
Some companies like Yamaha even use 3 different kind of DACs. Best quality on main 5/7 channels, lower quality on heights and even lower quality on network etc.

Lower quality DACs for non-main channels it's normal. But for internal players ???
 
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