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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

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amirm

amirm

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Here is a measurement I made for Denon when speaker config was 5.1:

Denon AVR-X4700H HDMI Noise Comparison to Coax surround configuration enabled.png


To get to final SINAD of 97 dB and matching coax, I had to go up to 7.1 to match the number of input channels.
 

RichB

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Yes in many ways.

If the source really has 7.1 data (i.e. all the channels have real content), then you have to provide mapping with its ugly ramifications of dealing with true overflow, headroom management, etc. BTW, this is what Windows audio stack manages by default, handing many incoming channels of audio from many apps, sending them all to one device. Most of us avoid this pipeline for degradations it can create due to this yet in AVRs, we may be using them as default!

If the source is set to 7.1 but content is 5.1, then it will cost you 2 dB in SINAD based on my testing of the 4700. The penalty for 3.1 will be more. I actually have a 2.0 for our TV sound which would mean a 10 dB loss.

Note that if you send a compressed bitstream, the AVR is doing the decoding. With Dolby, it is layered coding and authoring determines the down mix. I am hoping this means that the AVR is not performing channel mapping.

I started a thread a while back to discuss the impact on bass-management and other DSP processing on SINAD.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cessor-bass-management-impact-on-sinad.13352/

I don't think there is any reason for alarm for 2 and even 10 dB SINAD drop but that only emphasizes the need for core performance to provide the headroom needed for bass-management, REQ/PEQ, and down-mixing.

My concern is primarily that the multi-tone issue with 40 dB SINAD could occur on a 5.1 system and 7.1 content since this is widely used.

- Rich
 
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I'd like to see another digital interface multi-tone to see if it is HDMI specific.
See measurements I just post. It is HDMI specific not because it is HDMI but because when using HDMI, it is an 8 channel interface versus 2 for Coax/SPDIF and streaming using Airplay. Even with HDMI, if I delete the extra channels in my source, the problem goes away.
 
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My concern is primarily that the multi-tone issue with 40 dB SINAD could occur on a 5.1 system and 7.1 content since this is widely used.
Yes, as I showed, I could get the multitone to clip in that scenario. Denon Engineering is hopefully working to resolve this specific problem. Getting the dynamic range to be correct is a different (and more difficult) matter.
 

tparm

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And what about the person who buys it 7 to 10 years from now for that purpose. I would imagine Denon probably doesn't care about anything but the initial sale. But there are a lot of people buying used AVRs for two channel use.
I think you and Jim777 are missing the point. Or maybe I’m not understanding your posts. My room is 5.2.4 but I listen to tons of 2CH music via analog inputs from Audiolab 6000N. Two channel source, two channels used, no degradation in sound. Are you saying you use an AVR with only two speakers connected and are down-mixing multi-channel sources to stereo? Why?
 

rccarguy

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I think you and Jim777 are missing the point. Or maybe I’m not understanding your posts. My room is 5.2.4 but I listen to tons of 2CH music via analog inputs from Audiolab 6000N. Two channel source, two channels used, no degradation in sound. Are you saying you use an AVR with only two speakers connected and are down-mixing multi-channel sources to stereo? Why?

I have for a while, upstairs system for pc, dvd, console. Had 2.1 for a while. Now have 4.1 using spare rear speakers

Can't be bothered to have 5.1 main system is downstairs


I'd be pretty angry a avr does a botch job when downmixing if you don't have 5.1 system.
 

tparm

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The AVR850 caught my curiosity when I saw Amir's comments such as:

"Strangely, the volume control would max out not letting me get it up to nominal 2 volts I like to see from RCA preamp output. By chance I also tested the unit with the speakers set to small, and subwoofer on. None of this should matter as the test tone is at 1 kHz. But it made a huge difference: "

"If I now turn on the side, and surround speakers, performance increases even more!"

"One clue is that the moment you set the speakers to small, you can then keep increasing the volume from pre-out well past 2 volts even:"

"Tons of odd behavior is observed such as setting speakers to small and performance of a DAC improving. It seems ever setup change modifies the noise and distortion level of the product likely to pipelines that are not designed to any standard of quality. No wonder we get nearly useless specifications with no statement of conditions under which they were gathered: "


So I think the AVR850 was in fact "affected" similarly, but the results should still be valid, without having to re-test, if we ignore those measured with speakers set to "large" and/or with some speakers not "On".

For some reason Amir figured out settings have something to do with the results when he was measuring the Arcam but did not when measuring the Denon, may be he did the Denon before coffee.
That was mine and it’s sold.....
 

peng

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40 dB SINAD is certainly audible.
I think I am reading that the problem exists for a 4700H used in a 2-channel setup.

I don't know why that would be considered unusual, especially by the myriad of posters insisting that feature and power requirements are totally satisfied by an AVR.
They are the most economical and (usually) reliable choice.

- Rich

That's only if one use it in a not very common condition. There is no issue for the following conditions that I think the majority do for two channel listening.

a) Use analog inputs.
b) Use optical or coax inputs.
c) Use HDMI but leave the speaker configuration alone.

On c), I have never touched the speaker configuration once auto setup is done. So my 7.1.4 speakers are always on. If I play the 2 channel track on a SACD, BR or whatever, and select stereo, direct, or pure direct mode, I will be listening to 2 channel playback even though all the other speakers are still configured.

Why would you or any one do what Amir did in his test? I would think even him would not do such a thing, and he did it only because that was an available way to run his test using his PC as a source? What did I miss? Just very curious about why you seem to think this imperfection is a big deal for practical applications, or you are saying it needs to be fixed because it is repeatable. If so, I agree.

If I read him right, I think Amir himself does not think it is problem for us users, not bench testers.:D
 

rccarguy

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Plenty of people just use two speakers or 2.1 with a AVR.

To defend a bug just because it's not as common as 5.1 + systems is absurd.

I've used my avr with stereo speakers for long while, and just use the downmixing mode.

Why would a change my avr to a hdmi switcher, a dac, and a stereo integrated amp as that is what a avr combines
 

Vasr

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Why would you or any one do what Amir did in his test? I would think even him would not do such a thing, and he did it only because that was an available way to run his test using his PC as a source? What did I miss? Just very curious about why you seem to think this imperfection is a big deal for practical applications, or you are saying it needs to be fixed because it is repeatable. If so, I agree.

"Just avoid holding it that way" - Steve Jobs
 

tparm

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Plenty of people just use two speakers or 2.1 with a AVR.

To defend a bug just because it's not as common as 5.1 + systems is absurd.

I've used my avr with stereo speakers for long while, and just use the downmixing mode.

Why would a change my avr to a hdmi switcher, a dac, and a stereo integrated amp as that is what a avr combines
Ha! Ok all good. At least my set up performs well. Maybe you should consider using something other then the X4700. I assume you don’t own one anyways?
 

peng

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Plenty of people just use two speakers or 2.1 with a AVR.

To defend a bug just because it's not as common as 5.1 + systems is absurd.

I've used my avr with stereo speakers for long while, and just use the downmixing mode.

Why would a change my avr to a hdmi switcher, a dac, and a stereo integrated amp as that is what a avr combines

It is only absurd if your interpretation is correct. You may be but I am not sure without Amir confirming it. The impression I have is, if you use it with only two speakers, use HDMI and play two channel contents you won't get the degradation that he was getting in his test when he did the following:

"The output path form my PC however was 8 channels (determined by Intel GPU HDMI implementation in my Intel CPU). I had turned off all channels beside left and right assuming that would simulate simple 2 channel playback. Well, turned out this was the problem! "

I actually have my AV8801 set up in one of my 2 channel system and I don't see any reason why I would end up doing what Amir did in his test.

I am not a defender of such a bug and I do want Denon to fix it, say in their next FW update, but it is, not something that most users need to feel it is a problem for them. Again, unless I misunderstood something (in that case yes I may consider it a more serious bug), it is a bug but a very minor one. Regardless, I don't know who's defending this bug. Minor or not, it needs to be fixed.
 

peng

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Amir, so far you have tested 3 Denon AVRs. Do you know if the 3500 and 3600 has this bug too and would be discovered if you had used the same tests on them? I thought you may know because you were in conversation with Denon prior.
 

rccarguy

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It is only absurd if your interpretation is correct. You may be but I am not sure without Amir confirming it. The impression I have is, if you use it with only two speakers, use HDMI and play two channel contents you won't get the degradation that he was getting in his test when he did the following:

"The output path form my PC however was 8 channels (determined by Intel GPU HDMI implementation in my Intel CPU). I had turned off all channels beside left and right assuming that would simulate simple 2 channel playback. Well, turned out this was the problem! "

I actually have my AV8801 set up in one of my 2 channel system and I don't see any reason why I would end up doing what Amir did in his test.

I am not a defender of such a bug and I do want Denon to fix it, say in their next FW update, but it is, not something that most users need to feel it is a problem for them. Again, unless I misunderstood something (in that case yes I may consider it a more serious bug), it is a bug but a very minor one. Regardless, I don't know who's defending this bug. Minor or not, it needs to be fixed.

So is the bug when playing back 5.1 or greater with only two speakers connected (o 2.1) on this model and possibly 2020 Denon and marantz range?

Certainly not a abnormal setup.
 

Gyroscopics

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So is the bug when playing back 5.1 or greater with only two speakers connected (o 2.1) on this model and possibly 2020 Denon and marantz range?

Certainly not a abnormal setup.

I will avoid 2020 series Denon and Marantz like Covid-19.
 

tparm

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I will avoid 2020 series Denon and Marantz like Covid-19.
What are you doing to avoid COVID?

I feel confident Denon loses no sleep over .5% of users that only use two speakers and send a multi-channel signal to their AV receiver. It's not possible to make a product that suits 100% of individual needs. Ever. And if you feel you have such a set up, why are you commenting here?

They make perfectly good and affordable integrated amps for two channel use. An AVR is designed to perform in multi-channel settings. It just so happens the new Denon's perform very well in 2CH playback when set up properly.
 

Vasr

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It is only absurd if your interpretation is correct. You may be but I am not sure without Amir confirming it. The impression I have is, if you use it with only two speakers, use HDMI and play two channel contents you won't get the degradation that he was getting in his test when he did the following:
Yes and no. Looks like HDMI protocol differentiates between stereo input and multi-channel input with content only in two channels. The issue is with the latter but not the former.

But the latter can happen at the source for many reasons even for playing 2 channel content. Some uses I have encountered in my long audio journey - use of DTS Connect or Dolby Live at the source where everything goes out as 5.1 (edited: on second thoughts, this might not be a problem if AVR does the decoding of a bitstream, only multi-channel LPCM streams would have this problem). Not wanting to configure every source as stereo when they play mixed sources but use the AVR downmixing instead, especially on a PC to avoid Windows Media Engine to come in the way which would make it worse, etc. There are a lots more scenarios like that. Collectively, they may or may not be significant. We don't have statistics to show one way or the other.

I am not a defender of such a bug and I do want Denon to fix it, say in their next FW update, but it is, not something that most users need to feel it is a problem for them. Again, unless I misunderstood something (in that case yes I may consider it a more serious bug), it is a bug but a very minor one. Regardless, I don't know who's defending this bug. Minor or not, it needs to be fixed.
I really wish people would quit posting "most people do or do not.." unless they are involved in the marketing arm of a company measuring usage metrics t have first hand knowledge of the exact target audience. Otherwise, it will just be confirmation bias at best and blind partisanship at worst and settles nothing.

A bug is a bug is a bug. It has been encountered and Denon will hopefully fix it.

I wish this could be more of a technical discussion than whether Denon is good or bad seen through partisan/biased eyes.
 
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