Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[slingshot]

Here is the Home Theatre Hi Fi conclusion of the T 758 v3 review:

THE NAD T 758 V3 delivers world-class Dirac Live room correction, Dolby Atmos, and clean neutral sound for just $1300. It easily tops this segment in quality and features.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...d-t-758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver-review/

I have the T 777 V3 which is basically the same unit with more powerful amps. It sounds good to me although I eventually plan on using its preamp outputs with more powerful external amps.

AV Forums in the U.K gave its sound quality a 9.

https://www.avforums.com/reviews/nad-t777v3-av-receiver-review.14812

This why Gordon Holt started Stereophile Magazine almost 60 years ago in 1962; measurements don’t always tell the whole story, you have to listen to the equipment.

All this being said, I would plan on buying an Arcam unit when they finally have HDMI 2.1 and eARC; hopefully sometime this century.

As I type this, I am listening to an old Arcam AVR 350 drive some Quad S-2 speakers, sounds great.

 

[Dj7675]

Just a couple of comments
-It is ok to own and enjoy things that don't necessarily measure well if they sound fine to you.
-The NAD 758 V3 measure quite a bit differently that the 777. Link to the 777 review . The amps and dac measure quite a lot better on the 777 getting it to more in the middle of the pack for AVRs.
-Audibility thresholds for DACs/Amps from what I have observed after hanging out here is that different people have different values on what they think is an audible issue. Many of the people that hang around here would say an amp with a SINAD of 80 or 85 would be fine for example.
-On the 758 in particular, but also somewhat on the 758, if you go past -6 on the volume, the noise/distortion kind of goes nuts. Tests like these are important because now people know. For example in a small space and/or with efficient speakers, if you volume tends to be less than -6 (zero being reference) that you are probably ok. If however you tend to listed at or around reference, you aren't fine and it won't sound good (in particular the 758).
-The star of the show is Dirac, which is excellent, in particular in my opinion if you prefer or your speakers need full range eq.
-In regards to the reviews you mentioned, how much do you trust a single person's ears. For example in the review on the 777 we get this:
" The reality is that 0dB with the NAD is seriously loud but the performance is so clean and free of the standard triggers of high volume that you end up birching it. " While at zero volume on the 777, it sits at a SINAD of 78 for the DAC. 96 is required for CD playback let alone his res audio. Those kind of reviews are helpful with features but I would put zero stock if the reviewer doesn't have any experiencing/detecting noise/distortion.
-While you say it your 777 sounds good, and I'm sure it does, it doesn't mean we can't learn a lot from measurements because the manufacturer's just don't provide meaningful measurements for the most part.
For myself, when I am purchasing things measurements, value, features, EQ etc all go into it. Sometimes, even when something measures just ok the features it has (like Dirac, or Audyssey, etc) outweigh the importance of state of the art measurements. But many of these AVRs should and could measure better and hopefully will in their next design phase. In particular in the $1k to $5k price range. I picked up a Denon X3500 for $499 for my living room, and for what it provides I'm actually happy with it.
There is no problem with you thinking your 777 sounds good. But I would suggest learning what this site has to offer in regards to measurements as it will make the most of the items you have already purchased and future purchases as well. IMHO/YMMV of course.

edit: Forgot to mentioned I owned the T758 V3 for more than a year, and was the one that sent it in to Amir. I decided to move on from it after seeing the review. I always thought it sounded harsh at higher volumes and ended up thinking that could have been the reason (or it could have all been in my head ). I ended up being happier with a Denon X8500 in our main theater, limiting EQ to under 500hz with dual subs and the x3500 in our living room.

 

[A800]

Wow!
Incredibly bad.

 

[xhattan]

I bought one of these because I wanted to “upgrade” to Atmos and Dirac Live. I run Genelec 8010a satellites and SVS SB-1000 subs. As soon as I turned it on the noise was audible and unbearable. Changing any setting (like switching source, adjusting surround mode) produces scratching and popping sounds like a record player.

I googled “NAD T758 v3 noise floor” hoping I had a setting wrong and found this thread. 53dB SNR in the DAC? Are you kidding me? Thank you for publishing this. I can 100% tell you it’s audible. It gave me a headache after two hours. Luckily, Crutchfield is taking it back. I can’t believe this thing was recommended by Sound & Vision. Shame on them.

Have you found an 5.1.4+ channel Atmos Receiver or Processor yet that is any good?

Genuinely,
Sam

You clearly got a lemon. There´s no way those popping noises were normal. It was a common issue in the early devices that were sold and NAD stepped up and fixed it.

 

[xhattan]

Just a couple of comments
-It is ok to own and enjoy things that don't necessarily measure well if they sound fine to you.
-The NAD 758 V3 measure quite a bit differently that the 777. Link to the 777 review . The amps and dac measure quite a lot better on the 777 getting it to more in the middle of the pack for AVRs.
-Audibility thresholds for DACs/Amps from what I have observed after hanging out here is that different people have different values on what they think is an audible issue. Many of the people that hang around here would say an amp with a SINAD of 80 or 85 would be fine for example.
-On the 758 in particular, but also somewhat on the 758, if you go past -6 on the volume, the noise/distortion kind of goes nuts. Tests like these are important because now people know. For example in a small space and/or with efficient speakers, if you volume tends to be less than -6 (zero being reference) that you are probably ok. If however you tend to listed at or around reference, you aren't fine and it won't sound good (in particular the 758).
-The star of the show is Dirac, which is excellent, in particular in my opinion if you prefer or your speakers need full range eq.
-In regards to the reviews you mentioned, how much do you trust a single person's ears. For example in the review on the 777 we get this:
" The reality is that 0dB with the NAD is seriously loud but the performance is so clean and free of the standard triggers of high volume that you end up birching it. " While at zero volume on the 777, it sits at a SINAD of 78 for the DAC. 96 is required for CD playback let alone his res audio. Those kind of reviews are helpful with features but I would put zero stock if the reviewer doesn't have any experiencing/detecting noise/distortion.
-While you say it your 777 sounds good, and I'm sure it does, it doesn't mean we can't learn a lot from measurements because the manufacturer's just don't provide meaningful measurements for the most part.
For myself, when I am purchasing things measurements, value, features, EQ etc all go into it. Sometimes, even when something measures just ok the features it has (like Dirac, or Audyssey, etc) outweigh the importance of state of the art measurements. But many of these AVRs should and could measure better and hopefully will in their next design phase. In particular in the $1k to $5k price range. I picked up a Denon X3500 for $499 for my living room, and for what it provides I'm actually happy with it.
There is no problem with you thinking your 777 sounds good. But I would suggest learning what this site has to offer in regards to measurements as it will make the most of the items you have already purchased and future purchases as well. IMHO/YMMV of course.

edit: Forgot to mentioned I owned the T758 V3 for more than a year, and was the one that sent it in to Amir. I decided to move on from it after seeing the review. I always thought it sounded harsh at higher volumes and ended up thinking that could have been the reason (or it could have all been in my head ). I ended up being happier with a Denon X8500 in our main theater, limiting EQ to under 500hz with dual subs and the x3500 in our living room.

DL has a harsh sound at high volumes. It needs to be tweaked beyond the 10khz. This has been heavily discussed at AVS with people who actually own this device and didn´t have it only for a few hours. The new DL update has greatly improved this harshness and it has become more neutral and warm (according to people who actually hear at this volumes, I rarely go less than -10dB, so can´t say by experience).

 

[xhattan]

What about without Dirac?

Once you get Dirac, you never look back. Anyway, I liked the sound signature of the Yamaha Aventage series, that you could get for about 1K in older top 20xx or 30xx models. Very reliable brand.

 

[Shoegazer]

Can someone identify this noise I'm hearing through the T758 with the volume high? https://soundcloud.com/user-162159369%2Fav-noise Is it electrical interference from my house? I'm hearing it from both analog & digital inputs though the pitch of the ringing changes with each input. Analog bypass reduces the noise (though still there) & keeps it consistent where if I engage digital processing the noise is louder & affected by the volume control. It's still there through headphones after unplugging all components & speakers & trying other outlets.

Trying to figure out if it's the T758 or if I need to look into power conditioning. I'm pretty sure I've heard it from my old Harman/Kardon receiver before but since I added an external amp to the 758 it's loud enough to be audible from where I sit.

 

[acal]

Can someone identify this noise I'm hearing through the T758 with the volume high? https://soundcloud.com/user-162159369%2Fav-noise Is it electrical interference from my house? I'm hearing it from both analog & digital inputs though the pitch of the ringing changes with each input. Analog bypass reduces the noise (though still there) & keeps it consistent where if I engage digital processing the noise is louder & affected by the volume control. It's still there through headphones after unplugging all components & speakers & trying other outlets.

Trying to figure out if it's the T758 or if I need to look into power conditioning. I'm pretty sure I've heard it from my old Harman/Kardon receiver before but since I added an external amp to the 758 it's loud enough to be audible from where I sit.

Yep, same thing happens to my unit. There's a lower baseline level of noise that's volume independent when nothing is playing (which is barely audible from my main listening position), and a potentially louder noise that scales with volume if something is playing (that's audible from 10' away around -20dB on the dial in my setup). It's quite noticeable if I e.g. turn my source volume down (e.g. lower volume on chromecast) and turn receiver volume up, especially when I pause the source and hear the higher-level noise for an additional ~1 second before it cuts back down to the quieter, volume-independent noise.

This frustration, coupled with the bad measurements here, and some other usability problems (like HDMI handshake issues), have me looking for a new receiver (likely a Denon AVR-X3600H based on the good measurements here).

 

[Shoegazer]

Yep, same thing happens to my unit. There's a lower baseline level of noise that's volume independent when nothing is playing (which is barely audible from my main listening position), and a potentially louder noise that scales with volume if something is playing (that's audible from 10' away around -20dB on the dial in my setup). It's quite noticeable if I e.g. turn my source volume down (e.g. lower volume on chromecast) and turn receiver volume up, especially when I pause the source and hear the higher-level noise for an additional ~1 second before it cuts back down to the quieter, volume-independent noise.

This frustration, coupled with the bad measurements here, and some other usability problems (like HDMI handshake issues), have me looking for a new receiver (likely a Denon AVR-X3600H based on the good measurements here).

Interesting. Is the noise you hear from your 758 identical to the one in the audio clip?

 

[acal]

Interesting. Is the noise you hear from your 758 identical to the one in the audio clip?

Yep, just about identical.

If it helps at all, I have a 5.0 setup, running Salon 2's full range as mains, powered by an external amp; the NAD powers the other three channels. Dirac correction on for the full range.

On the AVS forum for this receiver I caught wind of noise on Atmos channels from a faulty old-style AM230 model, which I do have, but recordings of that noise sounds different (it's periodic), and if I understand correctly it only affects the Atmos channels (which I don't have).

 

[Shoegazer]

Hello!
Ive connected the nad and the cambridge via rca cables from nads pre outs, speakers connected to the cambridge and it worked! But there was a very audible hissing noise coming from the speakers. When i went over half the way with the volume on the cambridge the hissing was getting worse and worse.
Now, i dont believe i did something wrong but i still want to add some extra power to the buchardts, was thinking about 150-200 watts. What do i need? An integrated or a power amplifier? Using the pre outs, will it use the dac in the nad or in the integrated amplifier, if it uses the dac in the nad then clearly all i need is a power amplifier but.. i dont know. Is the hissing coming from the nads pre outs so adding external amp is out of the question for this unit? I am very sorry for these silly questions, if you consider my post too low quality, just delete it. Thank you

If you're still following this thread, can you post a recording of the hiss you hear when using an external amp? I'm having the same problem. I have a staticy high pitched buzzing sound that is louder (to the point of audible from listening seat) when I use the pre-outs. Mine gets worse with volume increase as well.

If I turn off the NAD but leave my power amp on, I can still hear the sound faintly from the speakers hooked up to the amp, but if I remove the power cord from the NAD, the noise disappears. I'm wondering if the more knowledgeable folks here can confirm that this means the NAD is 100% the culprit & not my power. I tried a power conditioner & it made no difference.

 

[Shoegazer]

Yep, just about identical.

If it helps at all, I have a 5.0 setup, running Salon 2's full range as mains, powered by an external amp; the NAD powers the other three channels. Dirac correction on for the full range.

On the AVS forum for this receiver I caught wind of noise on Atmos channels from a faulty old-style AM230 model, which I do have, but recordings of that noise sounds different (it's periodic), and if I understand correctly it only affects the Atmos channels (which I don't have).

Interesting, thanks. I assume the noise is coming from all speakers? I am powering my mains with an external amp as well & although I hear the noise in every speaker, it is louder using the NAD's preouts to an amp.

 

[Sharpi31]

Hi everyone, I’ve been a fan of the forum for ages but only just registered. Thanks Amir for the excellent analysis of the T758 V3.

This thread has fascinated me. Very brief summary of my perspective on all of this:

- I own a T758 V3 and love it. I’ve never been near -6dB though (young kids, small room).
- I’ve worked in the AV industry for 20yrs in a variety of roles (inc. NAD reseller) and owned a huge variety of kit
- I no longer work in the consumer Hifi/AV sector so have no agenda or commercial interest in this topic
- Amir’s measurements suggest poor design/implementation by NAD. Whatever the root cause, the measured performance is significantly worse than is regularly achieved in much less costly devices. This is disappointing given NADs heritage and marketing.
- Subjective reviews for this unit are generally extremely positive. I believe that Dirac processing is a key reason for this, as it partially ‘addresses‘ significant distortions further down the playback chain (loudspeaker phase distortion and the influence of the listening room)
- This aligns with my general view that the distortions Amir has measured (amplification & conversion related) are not the most significant/limiting distortions within the playback chain. This is not to say these elements should not be analysed - they should, like all other elements.
- While I’m very happy with the performance I get with my T758 V3, I’d love to try an alternative with the same functionality (inc Dirac, or the next generation equivalent) and better measured amplification and conversion performance. Amir has probably made this more likely at my budget level - thanks for that!
- Wholistic performance measurement of a device like the T758 V3 appears challenging/impractical (given the need for standardised testing of Dirac-type capabilities)

 

[finitol]

Hi all. I'm trying to improve a little bit the T758 poor measurement

I wonder if using an external stereo amplifier would improve hearing in stereo music listening.

Would there be noticeable improvements in clarity and cleanliness of the sound?

Or did the contamination of the DAC stage make external amplification useless?

 

[markymiles]

Well that’s another whole topic as in do power amps actually sound that much different. All I can say I compared the internal vs my power amp and it sounds much better to me using a power amp. Given the 1V measurements are much better it makes sense to pick an amp that reaches full power at a lower pre amp output voltage if you find one.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Hi all. I'm trying to improve a little bit the T758 poor measurement

I wonder if using an external stereo amplifier would improve hearing in stereo music listening.

Would there be noticeable improvements in clarity and cleanliness of the sound?

Or did the contamination of the DAC stage make external amplification useless?

It's debatable that distortion ever reaches an audible level in the first place, except under extreme conditions. Like the previous poster mentions, you can find an amp that reaches maximum output at lower than 2V and avoid most of the problem. I think Emotiva rates most of their amps for full output at 1.5V.

 

[finitol]

It's debatable that distortion ever reaches an audible level in the first place, except under extreme conditions. Like the previous poster mentions, you can find an amp that reaches maximum output at lower than 2V and avoid most of the problem. I think Emotiva rates most of their amps for full output at 1.5V.

Emotiva BasX series will be an option?

Cause BasX A-500 provides 5 channels , to bi-amping F/R and get central too... all a reasonable price

 

[Theriverlethe]

Emotiva BasX series will be an option?

Cause BasX A-500 provides 5 channels , to bi-amping F/R and get central too... all a reasonable price

If you can find it in stock... Bi-amping adds at best 3dB and running off the same power supply, may not even do that.

 

[finitol]

Oh, i can find it. I'm spanish and is easy to get it here...

So, that's a good option to bi-amp? other thoughs or ideas?

 

[Theriverlethe]

Oh, i can find it. I'm spanish and is easy to get it here...

So, that's a good option to bi-amp? other thoughs or ideas?

You can bi-amp, but there won't be any advantage because it's using the same power supply.