Active Designs & Their Favorability

[Ron Texas]

TBH, I would absolutely love to be able to add additional manufacturers to the "yeah these speakers are going to be perform well on every model" example list but we haven't seen anybody match up as far as actives go, IMO. The JBLs have too many flaws. For passives, I think Kef, Elac, and Revel have proven themselves easily recommendable.

Which JBL's do you mean? Nobody should expect too much out of the LSR305's as they are low budget. M2's and 708's speakers are revered, even if they don't measure as well as some of the European models. I'd like to see more Adam's tested here. My understanding is they are widely used in studios.

 

[Sancus]

Which JBL's do you mean? Nobody should expect too much out of the LSR305's as they are low budget. M2's and 708's speakers are revered, even if they don't measure as well as some of the European models. I'd like to see more Adam's tested here. My understanding is they are widely used in studios.

Yeah I mean the LSR305s and the 705p. The 705p seemed to measure worse than the KH120 so I was a bit disappointed. I wouldn't say people should toss their 705ps in the garbage or anything, but if someone asked me which to buy I would say the Neumanns. That said, we haven't had a formal review of the KH120 so it could be wrong, the directivity graphs Neumann has published aren't quite as high resolution as Amir's.

I tend to restrict my casual recommendations to things that have good measurements published, you're right that the JBL M2 is great and I did mention it in my first post in this thread, but I still think JBL is less consistently excellent. That is partially because of their choice to produce very budget-oriented products, certainly, so it's not entirely fair, but it's my opinion not necessarily everybody else's

Another part of this is a certain measure of extra respect given to manufacturers that step out and publish incredibly detailed measurements compared to everyone else.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Our host has noted that most actives rum out of umph. Take it up with him not me. After all I am mixed up, LOL.

That is because of difference in frequency response shaping and testing in different conditions. Coincidentally, I have both an active and passive speaker of the same size. Genelec 8341A and KEF LS50. Would be interesting to test this out. I won't be too sad if the LS50 driver blows up.

 

[maverickronin]

Our host has noted that most actives rum out of umph. Take it up with him not me. After all I am mixed up, LOL.

A lot of them seem to trade max output for bass extension at lower volumes by EQing up the low end and then adding limiters so the drivers don't get destroyed.

 

[Ron Texas]

A lot of them seem to trade max output for bass extension at lower volumes by EQing up the low end and then adding limiters so the drivers don't get destroyed.

That is because of difference in frequency response shaping and testing in different conditions. Coincidentally, I have both an active and passive speaker of the same size. Genelec 8341A and KEF LS50. Would be interesting to test this out. I won't be too sad if the LS50 driver blows up.

EQing the bass of a small speaker is the wrong approach. Have built in bass management and add a sub.
Not too sad if your LS50's blow up, then I'm not too sad if your Genelecs die.

 

[LTig]

Why are active speaker designs so favorable?

IME its mostly the performance/price relation. The performance (especially frequency response) of a good active speaker is difficult to reach with passives if you include the power amps (although there are now cheap good power amps available):

• Steep crossovers on line level are much easier to implement (very easy with DSP even for very steep filters) than in a passive speaker. This improves the dispersion in the crossover frequency range (less overlap of 2 drivers).
• The designer needs not care about different driver sensitivity.
• The drivers are connected directly to the power amp (no passive components in the signal path). No loss of power and (subjective opinion!) better dynamics.
• The amps can be taylored to the driver they feed. If the designed chooses an 8 Ohm driver the poweramp needs not be able to feed a 4 or 2 Ohm load which spares parts, room and money.
• Bumps in the frequency response can be fixed by internal EQ
• Frequency response can be extended in the bass with internal EQ (at the cost of maximum SPL - you can't fool physics).

I went active in 2004 and have never looked back. I started with K&H O300D (main system, replaced Magnepan 1.6) and Genelec 7060B sub. Later bought Genelec 8020a (for Desktop and travel) and JBL LSR2325 (for wife) and inherited a pair of Mackie HR824 (1st gen). I haven't yet heard anything passive within the price range of my main system (€ 5500) until today which got near its SQ. There were some speakers above € 30,000 but I cannot afford them.

EDIT: The fact that most professional studios world wide use active speakers says enough in my view.

 

[LTig]

EQing the bass of a small speaker is the wrong approach.

Not necessarily. It depends how loud the user wants to play. Not everybody is an @amirm . Also many small active 2-ways are designed for near field usage (desktop) where there's no need for high SPL.

Of course, using such a cuty in a 50 squaremeter living room without a sub is the wrong application, but even then, if you do not play loud, it can be amazing how such a small speaker plays. Currently my wife uses Genelec 8020a in her room (20 sqm) with room EQ and one of them in the corner, and its difficult to believe what they deliver.

 

[Sancus]

EQing the bass of a small speaker is the wrong approach. Have built in bass management and add a sub.

That doesn't make any sense though. Many people use smaller monitors/bookshelves standalone. Heck, that is the way Amir listens to them in tests. They should be able to stand on their own, and they should be optimized for the volume levels most people will use. Anyways, if you add a sub, then it doesn't matter how the low bass was EQed because the speaker won't be playing much of it and you won't hit the limiters due to bass output.

If your argument is just that more active monitors should have easy sub integration though, then I'd agree with that, it is a nice feature. It's unfortunate Genelec charges so much for this by the time you're done buying a SAM monitor and a SAM subwoofer.

 

[xykreinov]

Interesting takes ITT.
I want to clarify I fully get the appeal of active designs generally. You simply will never be able to passively engineer a speaker that cannot have its tonality improved via EQ. I just don't see what the benefits are of integrating parts into the speaker cabinet beyond space saving and general convenience. Overall, the replies confirm I'm not missing some esoteric detail that proves a company's rebranded DSP device residing within a speaker cabinet is going to do anything special in it of itself.

 

[tmtomh]

I ordered a pair of KEF LS50W actives a year and a half ago. I was shocked to hear that the speaker with all the electronics in it hissed, and moreso when the input was switched to wifi (my main intended connection method at the time). Returned them immediately. Appalling IMHO.

That said, I am sure that there are actives that don't hiss (or don't hiss objectionably loud), and while I don't currently have actives, I'm pretty confident they're the wave of the future. With Class D becoming more and more accepted - and better and better performing - why not? There are so many advantages to them, as the power amp-speaker connection/interaction has the most, and most potentially audible, variables in the entire signal chain (assuming you're using digital sources). Having them designed together allows one to eliminate, minimize, or at least predictably cope with and balance, many of the pitfalls.

 

[idiomatically]

I often hear people talking about actives hissing but I am yet to experience it for myself. The only time I have heard hissing is on a mates setup and that was due to a faulty component feeding noise to his actives.

I have Elac Navis ARB-51, JBL 305/308mk2’s, Yamaha MSR400s and they are dead silent.

 

[Sancus]

I have Elac Navis ARB-51, JBL 305/308mk2’s, Yamaha MSR400s and they are dead silent.

JBL LSRs absolutely hiss(video; measurements), there is simply no argument about this. I think it's acceptable for the price, but it's there, and telling people it's dead silent will produce unreasonable expectations. Navis and Yamahas are reportedly much quieter.

I doubt there are any completely silent actives, in fact plenty of normal stereo signal chains with a passive speaker have hiss too, it's just very very quiet if your amplifier is decent. But I consider anything 2-3x below a normal household noise floor of ~30dbA to be totally fine. If you make your room quiet enough and listen close enough I suspect you can hear hiss from just about anything though. Also hearing damage/loss is probably a factor since the noise is from the tweeter.

 

[Inner Space]

... JBL LSRs absolutely hiss ... I think it's acceptable for the price ...

I don't. I think it's appalling, whatever the price. It's shoddy, incompetent work. The designers have total control of everything, including gain architecture, and they sign off on a speaker that audibly hisses? They should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[idiomatically]

JBL LSRs absolutely hiss(video; measurements), there is simply no argument about this. I think it's acceptable for the price, but it's there, and telling people it's dead silent will produce unreasonable expectations. Navis and Yamahas are reportedly much quieter.

How come no one I have over can ever hear it, and it cannot be measured with a professional DB meter? I have put microphones in front of mine before and on or off there is no difference in what is picked up. My wife has sensitive hearing if my LSRs hissed she’d throw them out of the bedroom so fast it wouldn’t be funny.

 

[Rja4000]

Actives can measure better if DSP is used to flatten their frequency response. However, our host has observed many of them have output limitations due to small amplifiers, small drivers, or odd designs

Well, active correction also has some drawbacks.
If you need to push some frequencies by, say, 6dB to have it flat, then you remove 6dB of headroom.
That means your overall possible max output level is down by 6dB. Which is a lot.
It's not a design flaw. It's a choice.

 

[Rja4000]

active and passive crossover

I guess that's the main point.
And having separate amplifiers for bass and treble also probably has some benefits.

EDIT: Well, @LTig summarized all the benefits pretty extensively above. Nothing to add, really.

 

[echopraxia]

Interesting takes ITT.
I want to clarify I fully get the appeal of active designs generally. You simply will never be able to passively engineer a speaker that cannot have its tonality improved via EQ. I just don't see what the benefits are of integrating parts into the speaker cabinet beyond space saving and general convenience. Overall, the replies confirm I'm not missing some esoteric detail that proves a company's rebranded DSP device residing within a speaker cabinet is going to do anything special in it of itself.

It’s quite simply a practical/logistical concern due to the electronics and mechanical components being engineered together as a unit (and in some cases even calibrated together during production).

To turn it around, I would ask: What would be the point of having the electronics separated from the speaker, if they were designed together (i.e. the electronics are not standardized, but designed and calibrated specifically for that speaker model alone) and therefore are a proprietary part that still needs to be fixed or replaced officially by the manufacturer anyway?

I understand the desire to be able to self-service replacement electronics if needed, in the way that passive speakers often continue working beyond the lifespan of the electronics that drive them. But when the external electronics are fully standardized and interchangeable as in the case of passive speakers, this works much better than when the external electronics are fully proprietary to the point where replacing them is fundamentelly no different from buying a replacement part of a speaker. Then, the only remaining concern is how hard it is to self-service the replacement of that part. To that point, I would claim that if you can design modular external electronics, then you can probably also design a speaker with internal electronics that attach modularly enough that they are really easy to swap out for replacements.

If the argument is that this self-serviceability doesn’t happen often enough in the active speaker world, then that would be a fair point. I just don’t think the desire for this in any way necessitates external electronics.

 

[Sancus]

How come no one I have over can ever hear it, and it cannot be measured with a professional DB meter? I have put microphones in front of mine before and on or off there is no difference in what is picked up. My wife has sensitive hearing if my LSRs hissed she’d throw them out of the bedroom so fast it wouldn’t be funny.

lol I dunno what to tell you, like I said it's not super loud, I'd guess 10-15dBA in upper frequencies only, it's just loud compared to other actives. I can only hear my Neumann KH80 if my ear is literally against the tweeter guard, which is silly. Perhaps your room's noise floor is too high. I actually don't suggest working too hard trying to find it, because it might be one of those things you cannot unhear...

But it's been documented by so many people across so many units that it's very likely in all of them. It'd be easier if JBL would document it properly the way Genelec and Neumann do.

 

[ttimer]

Actives can measure better if DSP is used to flatten their frequency response

Maybe I'm missing something there, but what does DSP have to do with active speakers? Passives can measure just as well if DSP is used to flatten their frequency curve.

 

[idiomatically]

But it's been documented by so many people across so many units that it's very likely in all of them.

For every post I have seen of someone saying theirs hiss I see dozens of responses from others saying theirs don’t. I also note Amir did not raise this as an issue in his 305mk2 review either. I think most probably it could affect units with issues in their source chain. I would consider a hiss a pretty serious defect to the point I would have to get rid of them.

My Elac Navis are certainly silent.