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Next Level of Performance DACs.

jae

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If the quest for higher SINAD (or other benchmark) stops, what will be the next development? Its either features or performance that will incentivise someone to buy a new DAC. Multichannel may well be a next big thing but I suspect its a way off being a driver for mass sales .We have done the "balanced" thing. Suspect MQA is stagnating

I suspect the D90 V2 will be a spec bump, but no idea what the D100 will have that the D90 doesnt.

Other than adding physical features, outputs, inproving build quality etc. I think DSP/software is the next logical step (like what RME has been putting in their products for years on the professional side of things). Yeah SINAD could still be improved but it's at a point now where we're way beyond diminishing returns at the most extreme use cases and with the newest chips being present in some of the cheapest products. The market is getting saturated with many well-performing products now so it would be nice to see more 'premium' products that have things like stepped attenuators without breaking the bank and without compromising on design or specs. That obviously also serves to help lower the price of existing ones. Adding system on a chip boards to products for more streaming options and better software to stream with, and adding ethernet/wifi to cheaper lines of products would increase their value as well.

I personally would also like to see more no-compromise DAC/amp/preamp combo units that spec as well as their counterparts, and even products with power amplification built in for better all in one solutions.
 

UliBru

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What about a DAC which no longer changes the sound depending on
cable (spdif, USB, Ethernet connection)
clock (streamer, router, switch, ...)
tuning of operating system (Fidelizer, Audiophile Optimizer, Process Lasso, deactivation of services ...)
?
 

LTig

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What about a DAC which no longer changes the sound depending on
cable (spdif, USB, Ethernet connection)
clock (streamer, router, switch, ...)
tuning of operating system (Fidelizer, Audiophile Optimizer, Process Lasso, deactivation of services ...)
?
You mean like the RME DACs?
 

UliBru

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You mean like the RME DACs?
My RME Fireface is e.g. reacting on different USB cables.
BTW with an Audioquest JitterBug plus 5m USB cable it even denies to play :)
But I mean DACs in general.
With a DAC immune to quality of input signal (it's digital, isn't it?) all tweaking actions before (from good old CD treatment to Windows in RAM) would be meaninglsess. Whereas the audiophile forums are full of tweaking discussions.
 
OP
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themystical

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Don't use chip DACs. Here is the product you want.
https://www.mola-mola.nl/tambaqui.php

It ain't cheap.

Top of the SINAD list on ASR currently.

To my knowledge, the best measuring audio DAC available. Anyone know of better?
I believe the best SINAD rating has been achieved by the SMSL M400 at 123dB albeit that is at the DAC’s full output of 5.3V and this is done using only 2 out of the 4 channels of the AK4499 chip that it uses! Simply amazing as to how less has resulted in more and goes to show that simply paralleling more channels and DAC chips doesn’t necessarily improve measurements.
 

Matias

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OP
T

themystical

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We have members from many manufacturers in this forum. I wonder if they can be persuaded to share what is in their pipelines as far as TOTL DAC’s go even if the information might be tentative?
 

raistlin65

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I agree with that...but I hope it doesn't take time away from someone building a decent AVR/AVP! Let's get a few of those up into the 3 digit range and I'll be a happy camper...

It will be interesting to see what the charts look like in another year...

Yes do better AVRs. And I'd like to see small
50w desktop speaker amps break the 100db floor for $100.
 
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wineandmusic

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what i don't understand is if there are already many dacs under $500 that measure "well" and beyond that of human hearing and they supposedly all sound the same, what is the purpose....
 

Jimbob54

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@wineandmusic Because its a market. And we consumers love upgrades and new bling. Ive had/ got a handful of DACs, you've professed to having had a few.

Some reasons for me
MQA (dont go there)
Number / type of inputs
Balanced outputs
"Better" specs
The perception that more £££ equals better
 

tw99

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what i don't understand is if there are already many dacs under $500 that measure "well" and beyond that of human hearing and they supposedly all sound the same, what is the purpose....

To try to make money for the manufacturers, obviously.

Although since you're just trolling the forum, it would be great if we could all just resist the temptation to reply. Me included :(
 

Frank Dernie

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I realise that this might be an academic issue as far as audibility is concerned but there is a strange delight in the progress of technology and engineering prowess?
Well I am an engineer and I was taught making something better than it needed to be was stupid.
Now we could debate this since, in the case of electronic chips it doesn't seem to have a huge cost penalty (unlike the mechanical engineering i did) but still it seems a pointless waste of time and effort which could be better spent on something useful (to me).
Engineering is all about effectiveness and pointless effort isn't efficient.
Doing it for a hobby is OK I suppose.
 

Blumlein 88

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I believe the best SINAD rating has been achieved by the SMSL M400 at 123dB albeit that is at the DAC’s full output of 5.3V and this is done using only 2 out of the 4 channels of the AK4499 chip that it uses! Simply amazing as to how less has resulted in more and goes to show that simply paralleling more channels and DAC chips doesn’t necessarily improve measurements.
Well the Mola Mola was marginally better here on Amir's testing.
 

LTig

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Well I am an engineer and I was taught making something better than it needed to be was stupid.
Now we could debate this since, in the case of electronic chips it doesn't seem to have a huge cost penalty (unlike the mechanical engineering i did) but still it seems a pointless waste of time and effort which could be better spent on something useful (to me).
Engineering is all about effectiveness and pointless effort isn't efficient.
Doing it for a hobby is OK I suppose.
Yep. The only reason for me to buy the RME ADI-2 PRO fs was to be able to measure audio equipment - for fun. For listening and vinyl rips the old Edirol UA25 is good enough.
 

Racheski

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If we take a page out of the evolution of cell phones, I believe we will see more all-in-one DACs like the RME ADI-2 FS combined with the Matrix Audio products- compact form factor, digital display, parametric EQ, lots of custom settings, streaming, but at more affordable prices. I think that DACs without extra features, like the Modius, will be obsolete in a couple of years unless they are ridiculously cheap.

Edit: @jae pretty much said all of this already above...
 

KSTR

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My RME Fireface is e.g. reacting on different USB cables.
BTW with an Audioquest JitterBug plus 5m USB cable it even denies to play :)
But I mean DACs in general.
With a DAC immune to quality of input signal (it's digital, isn't it?) all tweaking actions before (from good old CD treatment to Windows in RAM) would be meaninglsess. Whereas the audiophile forums are full of tweaking discussions.
The good old Fireface sure isn't top notch anymore.
Try an ADI-2 DAC/Pro FS(R) with an Intona USB-Isolator and you have a DAC which is pretty much immune to anything happening on the digital side. You can add a TRACO THM30 12V-->12V medical DC/DC converter in the supply to get even more electrical isolation.
And here we all know that impressions from sighted listening are mostly meaningless and all those gross differences reported when changing something on the digital side (will maintaining full data integrity) go up in smoke when probed properly....
 

UliBru

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The good old Fireface sure isn't top notch anymore.
Try an ADI-2 DAC/Pro FS(R) with an Intona USB-Isolator and you have a DAC which is pretty much immune to anything happening on the digital side. You can add a TRACO THM30 12V-->12V medical DC/DC converter in the supply to get even more electrical isolation.
And here we all know that impressions from sighted listening are mostly meaningless and all those gross differences reported when changing something on the digital side (will maintaining full data integrity) go up in smoke when probed properly....
Hi Klaus,

unfortunately the ADI-2 has only two channels :(
Indeed there is some progress at RME. The ADI-2 now also seems to follow an external samplerate change correctly, the Fireface did not.
But why is it necessary to add an external USB isolator and another power supply? Couldn't this be done in the ADI-2 ?
Indeed my hypothesis is: if a DAC is reacting on its analog output side on cables, clocks, isolators, power supplies and other tweaking on the digital sender side it is not properly designed. And despite pretty nice SINAD data I guess that many DACs to not behave well when getting connected to different sources. Thus by additional tuning the audiophile entropy keeps on growing...

Another challenge: feed two DACs by identical signals but one with inverted polarity. The sum is perfect zero on the digital side. Check the sum of the analog signals.
 
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