Arcam AVR850 Home Theater AVR Review

[North_Sky]

I tested my ML DAC which I have since replaced: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mark-levinson-no-360s-dac-review.10842/

The rest is "too high-end" in that they weigh > 100 pounds. I did buy a dolly to try to measure one of my amps. Can't get help these days due to pandemic.

I just checked all the stuff you measured again; I scrolled down too fast the first time and I ended up short. But scrolling down slow...wow, that's an incredible amount of scientific addiction! ...In the best complimentary awesomeness. You rock solid Amir.
I think I'm going to write another big cheque next month ...

 

[TimoJ]

Accident. I forgot to test for the speaker setting until I ran a few tests and realized it. Reset to large and was very surprised that performance dropped.

I have run into it with other AVRs but don't recall any of them having these large variations. It only impacts frequency response and such.

Why did you put the best result in the SINAD chart? It's not comparable to the other results.

 

[3125b]

I wonder how a product like this comes to fruition. Don‘t they test it, do they not care, can‘t they do anything about it?

 

[audioBliss]

Even more apparent now how little the products from Arcam are tested. They surely can never have been tested during the development cycle. It's so bad to the point where I'm not sure if any conclusions can be drawn from the reviews of them because any little setting, difference in firmware version or whatever could completely change the result.

It would be very useful if you could please state the firmware version and maybe a few screenshots of the settings used when doing AVR reviews Amir. This is so crazy that even changing something like a speaker from small to large or Large + sub will drastically change the performance.

I'm sure you don't have the AVR390 anymore but it would be interesting with a revisit to see what the performance with latest firmware and using "As Speaker Types" setting (with all speakers to small) switching Dirac on/off etc. This is more of a curiosity thing as the AVRs have the same topology but the power supply difference does seem to make a difference here.

 

[Dimifoot]

Great-detailed review Amir!

Focusing more into what’s audible and what’s not in everyday use, and less into engineering hiccups, and taking into account that this AVR has Dirac RoomEq, IMO this should have been a recommended component.

But Amir is temperamental with his panthers

As customers we should expect better engineering in the future, these reviews help a lot in this direction.

 

[Sancus]

Great-detailed review Amir!

Focusing more into what’s audible and what’s not in everyday use, and less into engineering hiccups, and taking into account that this AVR has Dirac RoomEq, IMO this should have been a recommended component.

The review should just say it has Dirac, so people who think Dirac makes everything the best automatically can just read that as recommended and move on

 

[q3cpma]

Great-detailed review Amir!

Focusing more into what’s audible and what’s not in everyday use, and less into engineering hiccups, and taking into account that this AVR has Dirac RoomEq, IMO this should have been a recommended component.

But Amir is temperamental with his panthers

As customers we should expect better engineering in the future, these reviews help a lot in this direction.

I think you're forgetting the price here. "Engineering hiccups" like these are simply unacceptable for $6000 or even $5000.

 

[Dimifoot]

I think you're forgetting the price here. "Engineering hiccups" like these are simply unacceptable for $6000 or even $5000.

It’s 400$ per channel, cheaper than the Minidsp SHD. And includes amps, so not so expensive as it looks.

And these engineering issues are mainly inaudible for the end user, and present in all AVRs, one way or another. The whole AVR category needs re-thinking.

My main issue with this AVR is lack of multisub support. That’s important.

 

[Sancus]

I honestly can't see this as worth buying even if you DO want Dirac at any price. It's discontinued, probably has trash if any software support given how incompetent Arcam seems to be at supporting their CURRENT products, and will never be able to use the Dirac bass module.

The Monoprice HTP-1 performs better, has fewer quirks, is $1000 cheaper than the discounted price, and will have the bass module. If we want to talk about processors that should be recommended and aren't, we should start there. Yeah, it doesn't have a built-in amp. In this price range, who cares? The other factors are way more important. If I am a documented skeptic that the HTP-1 is worth the price, this Arcam isn't even on the radar of being a buyable product.

There is insufficient evidence that Dirac(without bass module) is actually doing anything audibly better than Audyssey XT32 with the app. Certainly not enough to recommend anyone pay this kind of money for it.

 

[pavuol]

Meanwhile at some audio manufacturer's HQ:
[development team]: Hey boss, we've just finished our last hi-fi design, it's ready for production!
[boss]: Calm down your enthusiasm boys. Send a prototype to Amir, he'll tell us if we are finished yet.

 

[RBZ5416]

It's discontinued, probably has trash if any software support given how incompetent Arcam seems to be at supporting their CURRENT products...

Last firmware update was dated October 2018. Issues with this (steering & loss of crossover setting on power cycle) were reported to Arcam & confirmed by March 2019. Since then - nothing.

I wonder how a product like this comes to fruition. Don‘t they test it, do they not care, can‘t they do anything about it?

In my experience as an Arcam owner (SR250), all of the above.

 

[Ralf Stocker]

Why is top quality expected here? These are mass consumer products. They will never achieve high quality. It is produced quickly and has to be cheap.

 

[Dimifoot]

The Monoprice HTP-1 performs better, has fewer quirks, is $1000 cheaper than the discounted price, and will have the bass module. If we want to talk about processors that should be recommended and aren't, we should start there.

I agree.
Still, this is a decent option, with amps included, so slightly cheaper. There are people preferring AVRs and not prepros, for various reasons. I would opt for the Monoprice also, by far.

There is insufficient evidence that Dirac(without bass module) is actually doing anything audibly better than Audyssey XT32 with the app.

RoomEq is not only about frequency response correction.

Today’s review has gone forward setting new standards, well done Amir:
Measurements with speakers set to small (bass management On), and that is how AV products should be used.
My view is that these are measurements that should be included in every AV product from now on.
Also, performance measurements of all channels, not only L-R. These are not 2 channel DACs, and we have to know if they perform equally in all channels, or if there are further compromises made in the center-surround-ceiling channels.

 

[scooter]

I wonder what quantity of noise induction usually comes from various types of AVR boards (HDMI, video processing, networking...), worsening the audio performance. Even though normally not all ports are being used, respective circuits are still energized and probably emit some amount of disturbing EM noise.

 

[scooter]

I think they "just eyeball it" or "tune by ear" or some other euphemism for slapping stuff together.

This reminds me a post by member from previous AVR review thread - how engineers with "golden ears" decide how an amplifier should sound for Europeans
Geographical Sound Tuning

 

[Francis Vaughan]

I'm starting to think that there is a need for some serious forensic analysis of what is going on inside these AVRs. We have been concentrating on questions from the DAC onwards, and it looks more and more as if there are significant questions to be answered about the digital chain as well. There are clearly some incompetent or careless designs and implementations of DAC and power amplifier stages, but it is starting to look as if manufactures are turning a blind eye to the problems in the digital processing.
By a blind eye, I mean that it appears many are taking off-the-self silicon and software solutions and doing the minimum effort to integrate them into a product. We saw even simple problems with such software cause Emotiva all manner of trouble, and result in poor outcomes. I have a feeling that hardly any vendor is immune. There is clearly a lot of money being made by licensing the various decoders and processors, and a hidden layer of vendors of implementations of these. Nobody ever discusses these components. They are just invisible. You can't even take to the cover off and look at the chips to know what is going on. And yet it is clear that the quality of implementation is B grade at best.
Certifications from the likes of Dolby, THX, DTS are clearly useless, they provide a lowest common denominator, not a guide to quality. Money, and cartel like behaviour on a number of fronts conspire to allow this situation.

On theo forensic front, time to start attaching probes to the I2S feeds and looking at what the heck the DSP is doing to the data before it gets back into the analog world. I'm betting that the answers will not be pretty.

 

[Promit]

Seems Arcam Asylum has given us the Joker and now the Riddler.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Accident. I forgot to test for the speaker setting until I ran a few tests and realized it. Reset to large and was very surprised that performance dropped.

I have run into it with other AVRs but don't recall any of them having these large variations. It only impacts frequency response and such.

Imagine if you tested all possible combinations of settings. You'd find stuff like this in nearly every AVR I think. I understand why more people don't test them and why you don't do all the possible settings available. It does look like the makers also just throw up their hands, and say talk about how good it is in the marketing everyone buys them regardless of the results.

 

[amirm]

I will definitely do a spot check of the dashboard at least in the future with large and small.

I still don't understand why the output level suddenly increases when the speakers are set to small. Seems like they think they can drive their amplifiers harder if they are relieved of bass duty.

 

[amirm]

Why did you put the best result in the SINAD chart? It's not comparable to the other results.

It is one thing versus another. The competing products are measured at 2 volts. If I put the 1.3 volt of this unit against them, they would cry foul. At the same time, small setting is very common by far compared to large so this performance is closer to actual use case. Other products don't vary their performance this way (I think) so they would not benefit the same.

Anyway, I did not create this mess. I am just having to deal with it and making judgement calls. If they all followed standards of 2/4 volts, our job would be easy.