Topping E30 DAC Review

[kevloke]

Found this about polarity:-

20. How do I know if my headphones are wired with a reverse polarity?
First, a reversed polarity is not when you switch out the left and right channels (that’s reversed channels). A reversed polarity is when you wired the + and – incorrectly, like swapping the red and black wires on a speaker set up.
The most obvious effect of a reversed polarity wiring is on the soundstage image. Things that are supposed to play in the center of the soundstage image (that’s right in front of your forehead) instead is like split into two and now playing on the left and right edges of the soundstage image.
Do this for illustration purposes: take both of your hands and put it in front of your forehead. With a correct polarity (and a good heapdhone and a good recording), a certain singer or instrument would be projected there right in front of your forehead.
Now, spread your two hands apart to the left and right. This is how an incorrect polarity would sound. The instrument or the singer is no longer in the center, but rather split and is now playing on the left and right edge of the soundstage image.
Other effects of a reversed polarity may include a shift in the frequency balance. You may get more treble, less midrange and such. Of course this may be give the impression that the headphone is now better (i.e with more treble comes more apparent detail), but the fact is that the soundstage image is plain wrong.
The best recording to evaluate this phenomenon would be a good live recording. A one instrument live recording like live piano solos would be even better since you have no distraction from the other instruments.
Some headphones like the Grado HP1000 comes with the polarity switch (so you can reverse the signal at will) but I personally have never encountered a recording with an erroneous polarity so I don’t see what the need is for such switches (Although I don’t doubt its cool factor). Likewise some DACs like the Cambridge Dacmagic also comes with a polarity reverse button. If you happen to have the Dacmagic you can play around with the button to see the effect of a reversed polarity.

 

[NgxHS7]

 

[Tiller]

This video is very nice, but the simplest way to assess the significance of invers polarity is to undertand that it is equivalent to sitting behind the orchestra.

 

[samsa]

This video is very nice, but the simplest way to assess the significance of invers polarity is to undertand that it is equivalent to sitting behind the orchestra.

I think you are confusing channel reversal with polarity reversal.

 

[Migel83]

Hello,
Go on page 76 and read my Post,please.John yang confirm it and i contact shenzen Audio and say the same thing.
I have read about this after i give a order on Aliexpress of this device.
And i struggelt it after it was a right to place a order.
When i become the Unit and have this problem i ship it back so easy.They repair it or i give it back and buy later when all are resolved.
Maybe i become the Unit who all are resolved and all are be fine.
And same User says it is not really a problem.When yes for me i know what i do .

 

[facboy]

Hello,
Go on page 76 and read my Post,please.John yang confirm it and i contact shenzen Audio and say the same thing.
I have read about this after i give a order on Aliexpress of this device.
And i struggelt it after it was a right to place a order.
When i become the Unit and have this problem i ship it back so easy.They repair it or i give it back and buy later when all are resolved.
Maybe i become the Unit who all are resolved and all are be fine.
And same User says it is not really a problem.When yes for me i know what i do .

Not entirely sure I understand, but as far as I know all currently placed orders (including yours) will have the polarity reversed on the coax/optical inputs, and possibly the USB input. The USB input polarity can be fixed by a user-applied firmware update (if it isn't already fixed), the other two inputs will require a new production batch to be fixed.

There is some disagreement as to how audible/significant the inverted polarity is...nonetheless, if it bothers you and you plan to use coax/optical I suggest you wait until Topping confirm that they are shipping units with the polarity fixed on all inputs.

My OCD part is a bit concerned that the coax/optical inputs on mine have the polarity reversed...the rational part says I have no plans to (and will likely never) use them, so even if it were audible it doesn't matter.

 

[tankas]

Do a polarity test on guitar. Its imposible to tell. On a tone, yeah maybe, but we are not listening to tones! Music is much more complex it is really really had to tell polarity, esp on headphones.

Edit: I meant to post this link:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

 

[AndyLu]

This video is very nice, but the simplest way to assess the significance of invers polarity is to undertand that it is equivalent to sitting behind the orchestra.

Huh? Completely not true. Where did you get that wisdom? The effect you describe (sitting behind the orchestra) can only be (somehow) achieved by moving your listening position completely behind your speakers viewing the back of the speakers. It has nothing to do with inversed polarity however.

As also explained in the video: the difference between absolute and inversed polarity is so subtle that almost no one can reliably tell the difference in a blind test.

 

[Robbo99999]

Do a polarity test on guitar. Its imposible to tell. On a tone, yeah maybe, but we are not listening to tones! Music is much more complex it is really really had to tell polarity, esp on headphones.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

Wow, I just played those samples on my SoundblasterX G6 DAC, that G6 DAC definitely has the polarity inverted as both the test tone and guitar playing was the opposite of what they said it should be. There was a clear difference in the samples that I could hear for both test tone & guitar playing, so I'm certain that there is not only a recognisable difference when it comes to polarity, but also my SoundblasterX G6 DAC is wrong and has inverse polarity. Well that sucks....ah, I'll use Equaliser APO to flip it. (Listening on my AKG K702 headphones, EQ'd to Harman Curve).

EDIT: unless my headphones are wired up the wrong way instead. I've got a set of HP50 headphones arriving sometime in June, I'll do the same test with those headphones to see if it's the headphone or DAC that has the wrong polarity. That's an excellent link you provided, I'm gonna bookmark it.

EDIT #2: I hope that website hasn't got their test files muddled up, any way to check?!

 

[Tup3x]

Wow, I just played those samples on my SoundblasterX G6 DAC, that G6 DAC definitely has the polarity inverted as both the test tone and guitar playing was the opposite of what they said it should be. There was a clear difference in the samples that I could hear for both test tone & guitar playing, so I'm certain that there is not only a recognisable difference when it comes to polarity, but also my SoundblasterX G6 DAC is wrong and has inverse polarity. Well that sucks....ah, I'll use Equaliser APO to flip it. (Listening on my AKG K702 headphones, EQ'd to Harman Curve).

That page (https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php) tests totally different thing, stereo polarity, and not absolute polarity. Obviously you are going to hear a difference. The out of phase samples make you feel like your brain is sucked out through your ears. I really doubt that G6 has stereo polarity issues... Everything would sound horrible.

 

[Robbo99999]

That page (https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php) tests totally different thing, stereo polarity, and not absolute polarity. Obviously you are going to hear a difference. The out of phase samples make you feel like your brain is sucked out through your ears. I really doubt that G6 has stereo polarity issues... Everything would sound horrible.

Ah, thanks, hadn't realised. Well it's not totally totally different.....but I now understand that it's showing what it would be like if one of the 2 speakers was wired up with a different polarity to the other speaker. In that case it means that the polarity in either my left or right earcup is wrong. In that case I can experiment by flipping the polarity for the one of the channels until I end up with the result they explain...that way I can 'fix' my headphones.

EDIT: I think that website has got it's descriptors muddled up of what in phase & out of phase speakers should sound like. For instance it says for the 75Hz tone that the in-phase tone should be louder.....however if I don't flip the polarity of any of the channels then the out of phase one is louder, but then if I flip the polarity of either the left or right speaker then the in phase sample is louder. I think that website has it's test files the wrong way around or it's descriptions of what you should hear the wrong way round. There was definitely a difference in what I was experience but it's not fitting their descriptors, even when I was flipping polarity of the channels, so I can't conclude that there is something wrong with my DAC or headphones...instead I think they have their files and/or descriptors muddled up for what you should be hearing.

EDIT#2: ah, that's why I'm getting conflicting results, it's saying that you don't get the same affects over headphones vs speakers...for headphones they this:
""In Phase" examples produce a clear, focused sound. "Out of phase" variations should leave your brain with the impression of a sound twisted inside your head (there won't be any frequency cancelling this time, because the two speakers are physically separated by your head)."

So with EDIT#2 in mind, I re-listened to the samples....I can tell that my headphones are wired up ok, I could locate that there was an unpleasant fuzziness to for example the out of phase 75Hz test tone, and I was interpreting that as increased volume....yeah, so my headphones aren't wired up with wrong polarity then. I'll double check the results with my G6 connected because I just now put in another DAC to rule out the G6 as an issue.

EDIT#3: G6 tested with EDIT#2 in mind...yep, ok, no issues, ha! So, in conclusion, that audiotest website is fine for those tests, they haven't messed it up, and neither my G6 nor my headphones have stereo polarity issues. And to be clear none of this is directly related to absolute polarity as @Tup3x pointed out....I was mistaken and inadvertently got sucked down the rabbit hole of another users post who for some reason started talking about stereo polarity rather than absolute polarity.....so not related to the E30 DAC absolute polarity discussions...apologies for my part.

 

[Migel83]

Hi,
I only came across the Threath yesterday after ordering the E30, otherwise I would have waited. I plan to feed him via the PC via USB and optically on the Ps 4 pro. In terms of electricity I will feed him with a power bank.
Is this the supposed topic because of the political nature so significant? If I read here so some say that it is difficult to determine, others say it is perceptible, this is really irritating, especially when John chang says everything is okay and topping itself too also confirms when you are working on a solution, don't get me wrong when I ask if it is only made up of hype if it really shouldn't be noticeable.

 

[Pulkass]

Relax, it will sound fantastic, pips the modi3 slightly on specs measured here, has a nice display to confirm sample rate etc. and remote so you can mute audio and play with filters from the comfort of your couch.

I own the E30 and have been vocal about the output polarity for rreasons beyond what I hear. In fact I am listening to it right now at home using the USB input.

For pure transparency sake, I also ordered Modi3 a few days before the E30 but it's stuck in the post and I can't comment on it yet...

What's Modi3????

 

[samsa]

If I read here so some say that it is difficult to determine, others say it is perceptible, this is really irritating, especially when John chang says everything is okay and topping itself too also confirms when you are working on a solution, don't get me wrong when I ask if it is only made up of hype if it really shouldn't be noticeable.

Read the whole discussion, starting here. There's no point trying to summarize what you should simply sit down and read.

Whether you would even be able to tell whether the polarity was inverted is something you could determine for yourself by taking @hyperplanar's blind test. (Take the test first, before you read the post where he reveals the answers.) Once you've done that, then we can have a discussion.

 

[Pimmsley]

What's Modi3????

Schiit Modi 3 is a DAC

 

[Tiller]

Huh? Completely not true. Where did you get that wisdom? The effect you describe (sitting behind the orchestra) can only be (somehow) achieved by moving your listening position completely behind your speakers viewing the back of the speakers. It has nothing to do with inversed polarity however.

As also explained in the video: the difference between absolute and inversed polarity is so subtle that almost no one can reliably tell the difference in a blind test.

No! When I mean "behind" you are sitting in backstage facing away from the sound sorce (orchestra) that does not result in channel reversal.
In the effect there is great difference between the nature of the instruments. "Spherical" beamers are very diferent from "planar" beamers.
If there are only (ideal) sherical beamers in the orchestra no polarity revesal effect can be heard. If you have planar instruments like a drum of larger diameter or a cymbal you will perceive the difference. Considering that generally there are different instruments in an orchestra at the same time, the impact is mixed. In the sound stage the relative phase of the sound of planar and sperical instruments will change.
My "wisdom" stems from my profession (audiophysics).

 

[AndyLu]

Huh? Completely not true.

No! When I mean "behind" you are sitting in backstage facing away from the sound sorce (orchestra) that does not result in channel reversal.

But that has still nothing to do with reversed polarity. Your analogy does not seem to make sense.

 

[NgxHS7]

No! When I mean "behind" you are sitting in backstage facing away from the sound sorce (orchestra) that does not result in channel reversal.

How do you figure this one? That makes no sense at all!

 

[samsa]

Maybe it's time for a "real" example, which is as polarity-asymmetric as any instrument in the repertoire: the trombone. Here's

1. A pair of .wav file with a trombone note and its polarity-reversed version.
2. A 30 second snippet from Villa Lobos Choros #4 for 3 horns & trombone, and its polarity-reversed version.

Both illustrate the extreme asymmetry of the trombone. See if you can ABX them.

 

[samsa]

In the effect there is great difference between the nature of the instruments. "Spherical" beamers are very diferent from "planar" beamers.
If there are only (ideal) sherical beamers in the orchestra no polarity revesal effect can be heard.

That's completely wrong. The polarity reversal that we are discussing has nothing to do with spherical versus planar.

Take (as an extreme example) the cannon shot from the 1812 Overture. That's an outgoing spherical wave, whose leading edge is overpressure, not underpressure. The polarity-reversed version would have a leading edge which is underpressure.

This has nothing to do with where you happen to be sitting, or which way you happen to be facing.