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Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

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echopraxia

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That is perfect -- very much like my room. I don't like high volume, and will probably get the 8351b (without a sub). Then I can add a sub as necessary. Though it sounds like with the 8361a having a sub in the smaller room would help smooth out the bass.

My 8351B’s have arrived today! Some impressions:

1) In my room, they will go ridiculously loud (for me) before the limiter kicks in. I was listening to a bass heavy song, and it didn’t start limiting until the Genelec calibration mic measured 105db. I could barely stand it, it was so loud. And the bass output was literally rumbling the floor and my desk. So I think for me and my room size, the 8351B was definitely the right choice over the 8360A!

2) The GLM system demonstrated just how bad the acoustics in this room still are. I have much work to do to fix some bass nulls. It was able to correct most though.

3) I initially tried setting them on my desk, which was a mistake and lead to a bad first impression. I believe my mirror-smooth stone desk was causing a nasty +10db treble spike, and GLM doesn’t seem to automatically correct anything above a certain cutoff frequency. Fortunately, placing the Genelecs on my speaker stands where my Neumanns used to go seems to have fixed the problem. I didn’t try manually adding an EQ filter to fix the treble spike because I wanted to understand what caused it first, but I really appreciate how easy and powerful the GLM software is.

4) By default it seems like GLM equalizes to a totally flat in room target curve. This is unpleasant for me, but fortunately I found the GLM software makes it very easy to set the tonal balance to various profiles, including a broad declining slope, which I like.

5) After figuring out they sound bad on my smooth stone desk, they are sounding pretty amazing. I’ve already heard several things in songs I don’t think I’ve ever heard before, which is pretty astonishing to me — I had thought it would be pretty diminishing returns at this point, but I can see why these speakers might be worth the price :)
 

richard12511

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My 8351B’s have arrived today! Some impressions:

1) In my room, they will go ridiculously loud (for me) before the limiter kicks in. I was listening to a bass heavy song, and it didn’t start limiting until the Genelec calibration mic measured 105db. I could barely stand it, it was so loud. And the bass output was literally rumbling the floor and my desk. So I think for me and my room size, the 8351B was definitely the right choice over the 8360A!

2) The GLM system demonstrated just how bad the acoustics in this room still are. I have much work to do to fix some bass nulls. It was able to correct most though.

3) I initially tried setting them on my desk, which was a mistake and lead to a bad first impression. I believe my mirror-smooth stone desk was causing a nasty +10db treble spike, and GLM doesn’t seem to automatically correct anything above a certain cutoff frequency. Fortunately, placing the Genelecs on my speaker stands where my Neumanns used to go seems to have fixed the problem. I didn’t try manually adding an EQ filter to fix the treble spike because I wanted to understand what caused it first, but I really appreciate how easy and powerful the GLM software is.

4) By default it seems like GLM equalizes to a totally flat in room target curve. This is unpleasant for me, but fortunately I found the GLM software makes it very easy to set the tonal balance to various profiles, including a broad declining slope, which I like.

5) After figuring out they sound bad on my smooth stone desk, they are sounding pretty amazing. I’ve already heard several things in songs I don’t think I’ve ever heard before, which is pretty astonishing to me — I had thought it would be pretty diminishing returns at this point, but I can see why these speakers might be worth the price :)

You seem to have a pretty great collection of loudspeakers. Really interested in your comparisons of these and the others you own.
 
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echopraxia

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You seem to have a pretty great collection of loudspeakers. Really interested in your comparisons of these and the others you own.
Yeah! Some time I need to take these, my Revel F206, and Ascend Sierra Towers into the same room and compare them all. The Neumann KH310s too, but I don’t know how long that will take to repair due to the facility shutdown from COVID.

One complicating difficulty there is that comparing active monitors vs passive is tricky when I don’t have a setup that can easily switch between them. It would pretty much have to be manually done with a laptop synced up to the same music (for the actives) as my AV receiver or Sonos Amp (for the passives).

One thing I can tell you though about this vs the Ascend Sierra 2EX I had in this room immediately before: I’m guessing because the Ascend has such wider horizontal and narrower vertical dispersion in treble, it wasn’t really a problem to set it up on my desktop surface without a stand. In contrast, the Genelec seems to have issues there precisely because it’s dispersion is so symmetric. Both sound better on stands, of course, but the Ascends treble seem far less sensitive to placement, where the Genelec experienced a much more audible treble spike (from the surface reflection I assume).

That said, I think the Genelec is clearly in another league vs the Ascend Sierra 2EX (and I would hope so, for the price). Of course, the Genelecs are EQ’ed and have way more powerful bass capabilities too. (I’m not bashing the Ascend by any means, it’s an great speaker for the price, though the Neumann KH120 is probably my favorite for near field listening in that price range.)

One thing I’m curious about is how this would do in a larger room vs the wider dispersion Ascends or Revels. I have a feeling the wider dispersion might give some favor to them there that is less relevant to near field listening in a small room, which is what I care about for these.
 
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echopraxia

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When are you driving them to Amir's house? :)
Whenever he wants them :). Well, I probably want to keep enjoying these for a while though, so long as I continue to work from home due to the COVID situation. At least until my Neumanns are repaired.
 

HooStat

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Whenever he wants them :). Well, I probably want to keep enjoying these for a while though, so long as I continue to work from home due to the COVID situation. At least until my Neumanns are repaired.
Actually, it would be interesting to test your working Neumann 310 while you wait. No pressure though.
 

Vintage57

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Actually, it would be interesting to test your working Neumann 310 while you wait. No pressure though.

I recall you mentioning the Neumann Kh310 was in for repairs. What went wrong with the speaker and how was Neumann customer service?
 
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echopraxia

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Actually, it would be interesting to test your working Neumann 310 while you wait. No pressure though.
That’s up to Amir, not me. I’m ready to deliver it whenever he wants.
 
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echopraxia

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I recall you mentioning the Neumann Kh310 was in for repairs. What went wrong with the speaker and how was Neumann customer service?
I must confess “in for repairs” right now means I’m working on finding a box to pack it up in, and haven’t yet contacted them for warranty. My online search got as far as the warranty page where a large banner said the facility is closed due to COVID and any new shipments received will be accepted but will be sitting in their warehouse untouched until the lockdowns end. So I decided there is no rush to actually get it shipped in, but I will probably get to it soon. I’m well under warranty though so I don’t expect any issues.

As for what happened: My right speaker developed a buzz/rattle noise which appears during loud bass and high woofer excursion. I think I noticed it faintly a week ago but it’s slowly been growing. So likely nothing wrong with the electronics, but some mechanical issue developing it seems. I’m sure it’s not typical/normal. But, this experience did tip my pick here slightly in favor of the Genelec over another Neumann, since Genelec’s reliability reputation seems to be nearly unrivaled.
 

detlev24

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[...] 4) By default it seems like GLM equalizes to a totally flat in room target curve. This is unpleasant for me, but fortunately I found the GLM software makes it very easy to set the tonal balance to various profiles, including a broad declining slope, which I like.

[...] I’ve already heard several things in songs I don’t think I’ve ever heard before, which is pretty astonishing to me — I had thought it would be pretty diminishing returns at this point, but I can see why these speakers might be worth the price :)
Congratulations! Enjoy those great loudspeakers.

I never understood, why Genelec keeps promoting a flat in-room target curve but thankfully, it can be adjusted easily. Regarding your KH 310 A, I would expect them to reveal every detail in music likewise, unless, your room acoustics mask them. The coaxial design of the 8351B allows for a closer minimum listening distance; where a bigger listening distance would typically be (even) more influenced by bad room acoustics.

Now, you would just need to find a way of application of your GLM target curve to your other loudspeakers; for direct comparison purposes. ;)
 
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echopraxia

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The question should be if you still can't hear them on the old setup, in which case it is indeed an improvement, or you can, which would mean that you just didn't pay enough attention before :)
Yeah I figure it’s either that, or the room equalization.
 
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echopraxia

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BTW, does anyone know a good and relatively inexpensive way to get digital audio out of a PC and into the AES3 aka AES/EBU format these use to accept digital audio inputs via XLR cables? I can’t seem to find a good solution here. I want to ideally use digital inputs, so I’m not wasting my nice DAC only to be redigitized via ADC inside the speaker anyway.
 

pierre

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BTW, does anyone know a good and relatively inexpensive way to get digital audio out of a PC and into the AES3 aka AES/EBU format these use to accept digital audio inputs via XLR cables? I can’t seem to find a good solution here. I want to ideally use digital inputs, so I’m not wasting my nice DAC only to be redigitized via ADC inside the speaker anyway.
BTW, does anyone know a good and relatively inexpensive way to get digital audio out of a PC and into the AES3 aka AES/EBU format these use to accept digital audio inputs via XLR cables? I can’t seem to find a good solution here. I want to ideally use digital inputs, so I’m not wasting my nice DAC only to be redigitized via ADC inside the speaker anyway.

Something like that works well: https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-4-dd.html ; I just bought a used one for 200$.
 

hyperplanar

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BTW, does anyone know a good and relatively inexpensive way to get digital audio out of a PC and into the AES3 aka AES/EBU format these use to accept digital audio inputs via XLR cables? I can’t seem to find a good solution here. I want to ideally use digital inputs, so I’m not wasting my nice DAC only to be redigitized via ADC inside the speaker anyway.
If you have a coax S/PDIF output you should be able to use this adapter and the appropriate cables. I would double check with Genelec first though.
https://www.neutrik.us/en-us/product/naditbnc-m

Edit: Yes, this will work, see post here. So S/PDIF out thru an RCA to BNC cable (or RCA cable with BNC adapter), to the impedance converter, then XLR to the monitor.
 
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echopraxia

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I don’t have BNC balanced coax digital output from anything. I do have a Topping D10 and suppose I can use its optical or RCA SPDIF along with this converter to get it to AES format:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CDL313--hosa-cdl-313

Total price still around $200 though, but still the best option I can find so far (especially since I already have the D10).
 
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echopraxia

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I'll say it again - I wish Genelec would sell an accessory that was USB to AES/EBU for the home user to run a straight digital input from their computer to their digitally active Genelecs, with volume control.
Yeah it seems strange that nobody offers what should be a very simple thing: USB digital in, XLR AES/EBU out. Genelec especially since that’s all their monitors accept for digital.

Then again Genelec charges $100 for their volume knob (which is pretty important with digital inputs as I understand it), so maybe they’re not too concerned with making affordable accessories.
 

hyperplanar

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I don’t have BNC balanced coax digital output from anything. I do have a Topping D10 and suppose I can use its optical or RCA SPDIF along with this converter to get it to AES format:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/cart.php?action=additem

Total price still around $200 though, but still the best option I can find so far (especially since I already have the D10).
The S/PDIF and AES3 formats are almost the same. Most AES3 inputs will accept a S/PDIF format without any problem.

All you need to get the digital output from the D10 to the monitors are a coaxial RCA cable, RCA to BNC adapter, the impedance converter linked above, and AES3 XLR cables. These are all passive devices.

To elaborate: there’s unbalanced AES3 using coaxial cables and BNC connectors at the ends. This is basically like regular coaxial RCA S/PDIF with the same 75 ohm impedance, but with higher signal voltage. You can safely connect S/PDIF sources to a BNC input using a simple adapter, but the other way around needs a level matching adapter to bring the voltage down to S/PDIF standard.

Then there’s balanced AES3 which uses XLR connectors. This is 110 ohms and the standard voltage is even higher.

S/PDIF, AES3 BNC and AES3 XLR are all largely compatible with each other, you just need to have the appropriate adapters for what you’re trying to do.
 
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