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Neumann KH 80 DSP Monitor Review

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Habu

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matt3421

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is there a reason the directivity keeps narrowing? in neumanns own graph directivity remains controlled to 20khz (although it is still narrower than other speakers)
Horizontal_DI_500.jpg
 
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Ilkless

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Strange that they show widening of the directivity toward the end.

Seems like a quirk of the scale they used, compared to the more granular 1dB scale you use for your polars. I do see widening on your polars too (focusing on the blue and green hues) but it's not as obvious because the colours are not in beautiful solid bands like in the manufacturer graph.
 

napilopez

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is there a reason the directivity keeps narrowing? in neumanns own graph directivity remains controlled to 20khz (although it is still narrower than other speakers)
View attachment 59002

I think it's mostly because Amir's graph is squished horizontally, unlike his newer graphs. Neumann's narrows too, it just looks worse when squished horizontally.

Strange that they show widening of the directivity toward the end.

Seems like a quirk of the scale they used, compared to the more granular 1dB scale you use for your polars. I do see widening on your polars too (focusing on the blue and green hues) but it's not as obvious because the colours are not in beautiful solid bands like in the manufacturer graph.

I think colors are a part of it, but my measurements show a very similar widening. Here's my polar map. Rear response is partly faked since I haven't bothered to remeasure this speaker completely, but you can see the widening happening in the top end in the font hemisphere for me too:

VituixCAD Directivity (hor).png


(Mine is normalized to the on-axis. Don't know if neumanns are too, though it doesn't matter too much in a speaker so flat)

I suspect the widening is something to do with measurement technique/equipment differences.

More specifically, in my SPL plots the KH80 starts to peak around 13kHz in the front hemisphere:

kh80 horizontal peak.png

Also in the spin:

Spin.png


Amir's don't start to do so until the rear hemisphere. So just something different happening in either the speakers or in the measurement technique. I suspect the latter, but have no idea as to the cause.

Mostly inconsequential at those frequencies, but interesting to note.
 
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matt3421

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@BYRTT posted this in the Genelec review. Does anyone know what the preference rating would be with the corrections? (calibration and mic cage fixes)
KH80.png
 

napilopez

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@BYRTT posted this in the Genelec review. Does anyone know what the preference rating would be with the corrections? (calibration and mic cage fixes)
View attachment 59934

I hadn't seen that correction. It's encouraging (in terms of neumann's consistency, and measurements across systems in general) that my spin is nearly identical from 200 to 12,000 Hz, when you consider the slightly different reference axes(tweeter vs between waveguide and woofer). It's interesting how the Klippel and my at-home setup read what's going on beyond 13K so differently though. Luckily most can't hear too much up there =]
 
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BYRTT

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I hadn't seen that correction. It's encouraging (in terms of neumann's consistency, and measurements across systems in general) that my spin is nearly identical from 200 to 12,000 Hz, when you consider the slightly different reference axes(tweeter vs between waveguide and woofer). It's interesting how the Klippel and my at-home setup read what's going on beyond 13K so differently though. Luckily most can't hear too much up there =]

My bet would be if Amir recompute sample one with better settings as he did for Harbeth M30 then above 13K would change and probably get closer to your analyze :) and if we lower Amir's microphone reference axis minus 52mm we get below on axis improvement :)...
napilopez.png
 

napilopez

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My bet would be if Amir recompute sample one with better settings as he did for Harbeth M30 then above 13K would change and probably get closer to your analyze :) and if we lower Amir's microphone reference axis minus 52mm we get below on axis improvement :)...
View attachment 59936

Cool - I think it speaks well to neumann's manufacturing consistency. You can even see the little resonance at 600Hz despite lowered quasi-anechoic resolution
 

BYRTT

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@napilopez if into VituixCAD you put below hang on zip folder of phaseless microphone corrections into a "Transfer funchtion file" container on spindata for KH80 sample one and either lower microphone Y-axis -52mm on "Drivers" tab or raise "D1" transducer Y-axis +52mm relative to spindata on "Crossover" tab we get those smooth curves :)

Mic_cali_plus_cage_fix.png
 

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BYRTT

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Listenisb

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Just got my pair couple days ago. They sound great for their size. However, I run into some issues related to standby mode. One speaker refuses to go to standby mode and the other one won't wake up from standby mode. I have both of them set as local on back plate setting. For the one won't wake up I have to mannually turn off and on the speaker. It also seems like depends on the DAC im using, Audiolab MDAC+ will not wake up the speaker but the Cayin idac-6 can. I'm using XLR calbes to connect between kh80 and DAC. PC as source playing Tidal. I aslo tried to set up the default standby time to 15 mins from 90mins but that setting does not change the local on standby time. How can I change the default setting of standby time for local on? Hope I can get some help from you guys and point me to the right direction to resolve these issues.
 

q3cpma

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Just got my pair couple days ago. They sound great for their size. However, I run into some issues related to standby mode. One speaker refuses to go to standby mode and the other one won't wake up from standby mode. I have both of them set as local on back plate setting. For the one won't wake up I have to mannually turn off and on the speaker. It also seems like depends on the DAC im using, Audiolab MDAC+ will not wake up the speaker but the Cayin idac-6 can. I'm using XLR calbes to connect between kh80 and DAC. PC as source playing Tidal. I aslo tried to set up the default standby time to 15 mins from 90mins but that setting does not change the local on standby time. How can I change the default setting of standby time for local on? Hope I can get some help from you guys and point me to the right direction to resolve these issues.
I think it's a recurring/known problem and should be solved by RMA.
 

Listenisb

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I think it's a recurring/known problem and should be solved by RMA.
Thanks. I contacted my distributor and waiting for a response. I just hooked them up with LAN and Neumann control software. I set the standby time to 10 mins with auto standby Network ON setting in the back. Both speakers entered standby mode after 10 mins. I then disconnected the LAN cable and switched to Local on to test it again but this time the speakers stayed on after 10 mins. I then test it with Network ON again with LAN cable disconnected they both went to sleep mode after 10 mins. Do you know if the I change the setting in the app it suppose to apply to local standby time as well? or local on standby time can not be modified from default? It seems like I can unitilize the Network ON function to solve the issue but not sure if my unit are malfuction or not.
 

Sancus

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Thanks. I contacted my distributor and waiting for a response. I just hooked them up with LAN and Neumann control software. I set the standby time to 10 mins with auto standby Network ON setting in the back. Both speakers entered standby mode after 10 mins. I then disconnected the LAN cable and switched to Local on to test it again but this time the speakers stayed on after 10 mins. I then test it with Network ON again with LAN cable disconnected they both went to sleep mode after 10 mins. Do you know if the I change the setting in the app it suppose to apply to local standby time as well? or local on standby time can not be modified from default? It seems like I can unitilize the Network ON function to solve the issue but not sure if my unit are malfuction or not.

The manual says network settings are saved whether or not a KH80 is currently connected to the network. So once you set something you should be able to leave it in Network mode and it will use the last setting.
 

Justin Ayers

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What is great about a good speaker is that you can throw it in any situation and it can sound good.
"A jack of all trades and a master of none."

These designs are all targeted. Near-field. Small physical size. Etc. Going by your statement, a good speaker is a full-range model (since it can actually produce the full range of human hearing) that has a jack of all trades design. Perhaps that means switches to flip from near-field to far-field and DSP to accomplish the transition? But DSP can only accomplish so much due to size and weight constraints.

McDonald's food comes to mind. It excels in a wider range of use cases than gourmet and yet it is not as good as gourmet for those who want gourmet. Just because the appeal of gourmet (its applicability to different contexts) is more limited that means it's worse than McDonald's?

The person who spoke about the needs of the hi-fi workload (vis-à-vis subs) is on the right track. I don't think companies should sell speakers without companion deep-bass woofers (typically called "subs"). Their purchase can be optional but it should be considered normal for them to be implemented, not so optional.

It's also hard to see how a composite rating is not misleading when it involves comparing designs with different amounts of bass production. Having the extra "with sub" number is helpful, though. It makes me think that that is the number that should matter, not the number without the sub. The only time it seems that that would not be the case for hi-fi workloads is with very large and heavy truly full-range speakers. Even with near-field "monitors", how much bass can really be managed without large-enough woofers/panels?

A good speaker does what it sets out to do — produce a smooth response over the frequency range the designers had to choose based on a variety of variables like weight, physical size, proximity to the listener, etc. Given that "near-field monitor" is a recognized niche, decisions have to be made about dispersion/directivity. A listener who prefers an omni isn't going to prefer one with a small soundstage.

I'm also dubious about the high SPL level used here. I understand that there is a concern about getting 40 db above the noise floor but if the speaker's sound quality is significantly degraded by using such a high volume that can be a source of misleading conclusion. With active speakers it could be measuring more information about the DSP/limiter/amp.

Well, that is why the test is marked as informal.
Perhaps informal testing should not be included.

I am dubious about the word informal being a catch-all for problematic measurement strategies.
 
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