I also compared the two, two channel only using the trial version. For range between 15-200 Hz, it is hard to tell which one can do a better job.
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Audyssey Room EQ Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I also compared the two, two channel only using the trial version. For range between 15-200 Hz, it is hard to tell which one can do a better job.
Wow, thanks for the idea, I'm going to try that next time for sure. I tried using one of those skinny sticks and found very little difference, my shaky hand didn't help either.
Did you use it on Android or IOS?iPhones can’t use an external mouse to my knowledge (iPads can).Wow, thanks for the idea, I'm going to try that next time for sure. I tried using one of those skinny sticks and found very little difference, my shaky hand didn't help either.
Wow, thanks for the idea, I'm going to try that next time for sure. I tried using one of those skinny sticks and found very little difference, my shaky hand didn't help either.
I've been using the app on Android, but both Android and iOS have mouse support, so I suspect the addition of a mouse would prove helpful regardless of device.
Edit: looking around a bit on the web, my understanding is that mouse support was added to iOS with the release of version 13 last year.
Audyssey is indeed minimum phase, but a FIR filter can have any phase response. For manipulations within the audio band, minimum phase is often preferable since the dreaded "pre-ringing" can actually become audible otherwise.
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Amir
Thanks for the write up. I think you may get different (maybe even better) results if you read up on Audyssey a bit and re-do the calibration. You seem to have made some typical ‘rookie’ mistakes regarding microphone placement, etc.
This is a great place to start: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...6770-official-audyssey-thread-part-ii.html#d1
Two things jumped out at me immediately:
1. Use a microphone stand and throw the cardboard out. Never handhold the mic. I simply tape my calibration mic to a boom mic stand since my fittings are also not compatible.
2. Your measurements should all be within 24 inches of the first (most important) measurement. The Audyssey App setup wizard clearly makes this point, but I’m not sure about the receiver wizard. Since I bought the app I’ve not used the receiver wizard because I don’t even like standing in the same room when the calibration is taking place.
More here: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/202387323-Audyssey-101
I’ve run Audyssey calibrations many times starting with my old 2312CI, and most recently with my X-3500H. I’ve read every single piece of information that I can regarding Audyssey setup, pros/cons, etc. My initial microphone placement methods were very far from ideal (about 8 years ago on the 2312). My experience for both receivers, and various sets of speakers, is that Audyssey SIGNIFICANTLY improves the sound quality for my setup...but I highly recommend reading up on the basics first.
From the AVS FAQ link above:
Thanks for the write up. I think you may get different (maybe even better) results if you read up on Audyssey a bit and re-do the calibration. You seem to have made some typical ‘rookie’ mistakes regarding microphone placement, etc.
This is a great place to start: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...6770-official-audyssey-thread-part-ii.html#d1
Two things jumped out at me immediately:
1. Use a microphone stand and throw the cardboard out. Never handhold the mic. I simply tape my calibration mic to a boom mic stand since my fittings are also not compatible.
2. Your measurements should all be within 24 inches of the first (most important) measurement. The Audyssey App setup wizard clearly makes this point, but I’m not sure about the receiver wizard. Since I bought the app I’ve not used the receiver wizard because I don’t even like standing in the same room when the calibration is taking place.
More here: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/202387323-Audyssey-101
I’ve run Audyssey calibrations many times starting with my old 2312CI, and most recently with my X-3500H. I’ve read every single piece of information that I can regarding Audyssey setup, pros/cons, etc. My initial microphone placement methods were very far from ideal (about 8 years ago on the 2312). My experience for both receivers, and various sets of speakers, is that Audyssey SIGNIFICANTLY improves the sound quality for my setup...but I highly recommend reading up on the basics first.
From the AVS FAQ link above:
- Use only the microphone included with your AVR. If you cannot find it, contact the manufacturer for a replacement.
- Attach your microphone to a mic stand (preferably) or tripod.
- Take the measurements at ear height and with the mic facing the ceiling.
- Start the measurements from the primary listening location and spread out from there.
- Approximate distance from the first measurement position is 2 feet in any direction.
- Focus on the central listening area and avoid extreme positions such as the back wall or too far beyond the left and right speakers.
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maty
Major Contributor
Thank you, that was my mistake I had about the minimum phase thing, and if you noticed the second quote, that was the one I intended to replay to, not the first one. Somehow it got stuck together without me noticing. I edited it out now. If I had kept that part of the response I would have simply added that being FIR based, it could have implemented either (or may be even both?) but it is something that we need to ask Audyssey about it.
I didn't mean to post that response as I wasn't sure and I have now edited it out. In theory it could have been either or both I guess. Now I am curious enough to may be open a ticket to get a response (they probably won't tell us though) from Audyssey directly.
Are there plans to do XT/Dirac/Anthem reviews? Seems like a no brainer.
My biggest gripe with Audyssey is the apparent lack of consistency among microphones. This was one of the major reasons for going with Dirac, I can use a calibrated mic vs trusting the $30 mass produced mic.
My biggest gripe with Audyssey is the apparent lack of consistency among microphones. This was one of the major reasons for going with Dirac, I can use a calibrated mic vs trusting the $30 mass produced mic.
The impulse response from my Marantz AVR has distinct minimum phase appearance.
Any review of this kind must include subs, and timing measurements.
I mean, if you limit the EQ to <5kHz there is basically no difference.
There will be a pronounced difference between XT and the rest below 5kHz, but the data showing what happens above could still be very useful!
Jukebox
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@amirm : " I noticed that Dynamic EQ was on by default. I turned it off and the sound became a lot less pleasant (I used the "Reference" mode)."
Dynamic EQ, as stated by Audyssey, should work gradually as you decrease the master volume from reference 0dB where is completely off. A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it.
Audyssey Dynamic EQ is referenced to the standard film mix level. It makes adjustments to maintain the reference response and surround envelopment when the volume is turned down from 0 dB.
Considering that for movie I never listen at 0dB, I always have DEQ on and I find it much better; for music depends, maybe i will modify the offset level; who else has experimented with this?
more info about DEQ here: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
Dynamic EQ, as stated by Audyssey, should work gradually as you decrease the master volume from reference 0dB where is completely off. A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it.
Audyssey Dynamic EQ is referenced to the standard film mix level. It makes adjustments to maintain the reference response and surround envelopment when the volume is turned down from 0 dB.
Considering that for movie I never listen at 0dB, I always have DEQ on and I find it much better; for music depends, maybe i will modify the offset level; who else has experimented with this?
more info about DEQ here: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level
OP
- Thread Starter
- #76
Not at all. If I had made mistakes the objective and subjective results would have been poor which they were not.
It isn't unfortunately. I used to be an AVS member and posted extensively about the mistakes in that thread in the specific, and issues with Audyssey in general including many discussions with the OP of that FAQ. Fortunately, it seems that since then he has changed his views significantly about me
, and which EQ system is best:This is the article he is talking about: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/target-room-response-and-cinema-x-curve.10/
I did not use the cardboard. I just commented on it. The admonishment about hand holding the mic is wrong. THe major correction in EQ is at low frequencies where wavelengths are massive compared to the size of your arm. As such, it is not "seen." In addition, being in the measurements is better because it reflects the true usage pattern of the room (as opposed to be empty with just the mic stand).
The main benefit of the microphone stand is repeatability if you can mark all the positions. Otherwise, you can't repeat them anyway. Again, I encourage you to look at the objective results I showed on how the right corrections were made.
Certainly this is NO proof that using a stand makes an improvement:
There is no way you can remember such things from run to runs that take minutes.
There is another issue. When I was playing with the app after calibration, I made a change and was amazed at the improvement in detail and imaging. Then I realized I had not yet uploaded the change so nothing was different! This is especially true of people who like to believe something is good. This is why you want to confirm what the system is doing.
Anyway there is no rookie mistake or otherwise. I have calibrated rooms countless times by hand and with every Room EQ system out there. I understand the underlying science and what the system needs to do. It is not a mistake that I quickly arrived at the right target curve and positive results.
DEQ is the main reason I'm not wholesale switching to Dirac. It's incredibly useful/practical to have a progressive application of the loudness curve and the ability to tailor the offset. I typically find an offset of -10 to be suited to most music but can quickly be adjust to -5 or 0 for bass light recordings or -15 for bass heavy. I find myself content listening at lower levels than before having DEQ.
DEQ is the main reason I'm not wholesale switching to Dirac. It's incredibly useful/practical to have a progressive application of the loudness curve and the ability to tailor the offset. I typically find an offset of -10 to be suited to most music but can quickly be adjust to -5 or 0 for bass light recordings or -15 for bass heavy. I find myself content listening at lower levels than before having DEQ.
Promit
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Amir, I am so freaking thrilled you got around to doing this. The combination of the stellar 3600 review plus this review have effectively vaulted Denon to the front of the receiver pack in sensible price ranges and possibly across the board.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #79
??? I don't see such remark from Chris (I have read that FAQ countless times in arguments on AVS):
Spatial averaging is used to make sure the frequency response errors are minimum phase and are corrected for larger seating area. There is no other magic about them. To the extent a peak survives all those measurements in the aggregate, it can be corrected without making the sound worse for some listeners.
The only admonishment I remember was not being 24 inches or less from a wall, not with respect to mic positions.
Regardless, within my arm length, I followed the graphs in the app which was the same as what was in the receiver.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #80
I was surprised how well it worked and to some extent compensated for the flat target curve. More DSP/EQ products should implement it as the technology is quite old (TacT implemented it some 20 years ago).
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