• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Does DAC performance = great sound?

Fluffy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
856
Likes
1,423
@Fluffy
So what I find useful about the multitone test is that it clearly shows how harmonic distortion 'adds up' over the audio range, or, put another way, 'eats up' dynamic range, esp at higher frequencies.
I happen to like instruments with complex harmonic signatures (at least to these western ears), like bagpipes, didgeridoo, etc, as well as classical orchestral and chamber music, so I tell myself it matters to me.
I do not disagree - in principal - with the other comments along the line of 'it doesn't matter' (between top tier DACs), but given my experience with the Okto, I do wonder, and so share those thoughts here.
I was not expecting or anticipating dynamics to make such a noticeable difference, but it does on my system upgrade.
And, it is truly amazing how good the $200 (and under!) DACs are today.
If it weren't for the unique feature set of the Okto, I'd probably have been fine with something like the D50 (or bal.out equivalent).

If the "grass" floor of the multitoned test is lower than the noise floor, it's insignificant. Furthermore, you can go into thinking about audibility thresholds, and in this case, a floor that is lower than -90 db is pretty much negligible. On top of that add the IMD of the speakers that are orders of magnitude more than that of the DAC, and you can safely say that this has no real world impact, under a sensible threshold.

Regarding the complexity of harmonic content in instruments, that’s a whole other discussion. But I'll do say that you want to preserve the harmonic structure, doesn't matter the instrument. I don't think one instrument is "more difficult" to reproduce than another.
 

GGroch

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
1,059
Likes
2,049
Location
Denver, Colorado
A lot of the variance in cost between DACs will be due to things that will not effect the sound quality of the finished product, for example:
  • Where it's made..........
  • How it's made.......
  • Does it include "boutique" components.........
  • Does it have expensive case work.......
With DACs, I would argue that these are some of the only things that DO effect sound quality.

If the performance of all modern correctly designed DACs are essentially perfect (I think they are), then perceived sound differences, are based on things other than performance, like the listed items above. Other factors that can greatly impact perceived DAC sound quality could include:
  • Technology Story (multi-bit vs single bit, filter types etc.)
  • Brand and Designer Reputation
  • Price (it has been proven that aspirin that costs 50 cents reduces perceived pain significantly better than identical aspirin that costs 5 cents)
  • Subjective Reviews and Influencer Recommendations
I'm sure there are more.

Nearly every discussion of DAC sound quality (including this one) include posts by experienced listeners who hear major differences in DACs. These people are not crazy, but they are human, so their perceptions are influenced by expectation bias. Our perceptions of everything are influenced by expectation bias.

If your listening experience is more enjoyable because of factors not related to actual performance, that's OK with me.

I know I enjoy a bottle of wine considerably more when someone has told me its story.
 

Wes

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
3,843
Likes
3,788
would the difference between the Modi3 and the Okto be clearly audible?

You'd have to do a blind test to find out.

If it is audible it will likely be a smaller difference than moving from good speakers to great speakers.

But suppose you already spent for the "best" speakers, room tmts. setup etc.

Then you have searched for the most "revealing" program material (even if it is not enjoyable)...

Then you do a blind test.

Would a difference in DACs then be detectable, where it was not detectable with say $1,000 speakers etc.?
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
Hello,

I been using this form as a buying guide since I got into audio. I am very very grateful to everyone on here that takes the time to review products.

I am wondering this one thing, maybe it has been asked before so I apologizes in advanced. Perhaps you can point to me the thread, if so?

So here is my question...

I see all the reviews for great performing dacs on here and I cant help but wonder, does the 500 dollar (SMLS M500 example) dac actually sound cleaner then the 2000 dac (Benchmark DAC3 example) because it has has better numbers? At the end of the day does price really not matter?

Or does more go into the build process in more expensive dacs? I mean clearly we can tell that some expensive dac's are not worth the money due to its performance.

Here is my honest to god question, if you have two Dac's with similar performance in numbers, ones 500 ones 2000. Is it really all about features and warranty at that point when taking into consideration which to buy?

Thank you so much for you time.

-John

Audio quality is dependent on the playback "system". The DAC is just a very small part of sound quality, relative to your room acoustics and speakers (which IMO together constitute at least 90% of the subjective audio quality). So if your room has terrible acoustics and your speakers are low budget (under $500) then it is money wasted for any hoped for improvements beyond the Topping E30 for $129. Such a system will receive zero improvement from an "above average" DAC. So without sharing with us your entire system, it's difficult to say whether you'd even be able to hear differences among DACs if your speaker is not capable of such resolution.
 

NoMoFoNo

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
261
Likes
325
1) Until ASR documents far more speaker systems' objective performance, I'm not prepared to accept the 'budget' argument regarding speaker performance, and will not pay attention to reputation of manufacturers in the speaker realm. It may very well be that some very expensive speaker systems perform poorly when subjected to the glaring light of objective testing. In fact, I assume that will be the case.

2) Average, above average, these are meaningless descriptions once we can reach audible transparency. The DAC that achieves, say, a SINAD of 112 versus 111 or even 105, is very unlikely to perform better in any meaningful audible sense. I'm not well versed in objective performance numbers for amps, but IMO the same concepts apply. Once we reach general transparency, we're done. From transparency, the listener can apply whichever bias-driven 'flavor' they desire, but I want to pursue objectively-driven transparency.

3) The entire goal, as I see it, is to reduce the audio hobby to the goal of achieving the most transparency for the fewest dollars out of pocket possible. I love the idea of forcing manufacturers to pay attention to performance data over magical audiophool thinking, and making it easier for consumers to find the gems that perform very well for very few dollars.


Audio quality is dependent on the playback "system". The DAC is just a very small part of sound quality, relative to your room acoustics and speakers (which IMO together constitute at least 90% of the subjective audio quality). So if your room has terrible acoustics and your speakers are low budget (under $500) then it is money wasted for any hoped for improvements beyond the Topping E30 for $129. Such a system will receive zero improvement from an "above average" DAC. So without sharing with us your entire system, it's difficult to say whether you'd even be able to hear differences among DACs if your speaker is not capable of such resolution.
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
1) Until ASR documents far more speaker systems' objective performance, I'm not prepared to accept the 'budget' argument regarding speaker performance, and will not pay attention to reputation of manufacturers in the speaker realm. It may very well be that some very expensive speaker systems perform poorly when subjected to the glaring light of objective testing. In fact, I assume that will be the case.

2) Average, above average, these are meaningless descriptions once we can reach audible transparency. The DAC that achieves, say, a SINAD of 112 versus 111 or even 105, is very unlikely to perform better in any meaningful audible sense. I'm not well versed in objective performance numbers for amps, but IMO the same concepts apply. Once we reach general transparency, we're done. From transparency, the listener can apply whichever bias-driven 'flavor' they desire, but I want to pursue objectively-driven transparency.

3) The entire goal, as I see it, is to reduce the audio hobby to the goal of achieving the most transparency for the fewest dollars out of pocket possible. I love the idea of forcing manufacturers to pay attention to performance data over magical audiophool thinking, and making it easier for consumers to find the gems that perform very well for very few dollars.

My first point assumes that a more expensive speaker delivers a better designed speaker with improved frequency response and dispersion (such as Genelec speakers) which may be only noticeable in a room that enables such resolution. But then the recent ASR review of the $600 Debut Reference speakers pretty much confirms my observation that we may already be there: $600 is all you need to spend if you want sound that approaches the "best in class" $4,000 m126be (I have both and have been comparing them extensively the last several weeks).
 

NoMoFoNo

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
261
Likes
325
I saw that review earlier today and thanks for your post. $600 for outstanding performers in a world of big dollar speakers. Absolutely love it. I'm not exaggerating when I say objective reviews, and surrounding discussion, have already saved me thousands, will save me thousands more, and make the hobby enjoyable to me again.
 

lewis

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
54
Likes
6
Location
Yeovil
My first point assumes that a more expensive speaker delivers a better designed speaker with improved frequency response and dispersion (such as Genelec speakers) which may be only noticeable in a room that enables such resolution. But then the recent ASR review of the $600 Debut Reference speakers pretty much confirms my observation that we may already be there: $600 is all you need to spend if you want sound that approaches the "best in class" $4,000 m126be (I have both and have been comparing them extensively the last several weeks).

Is the Debut Reference really at the same sound quality level as the Revel m126be? Is this possible?
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
Is the Debut Reference really at the same sound quality level as the Revel m126be? Is this possible?
Again, I don't have the golden ears of professional audio reviewers, but I do listen to lots of music on my m126be and I mix/master audio on the side so I do know what I'm looking for during critical listening, and I've played musical instruments (piano, acoustic guitar) for the last 30 years so I'm attuned to certain ranges and this speaker hits it out of the ballpark for my purposes.
 

Jarrett

Active Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
126
Likes
119
Makes one wonder if anyone on this forum should be concerned with sound quality at all, as long as everything in the chain measures well :p;)
 

Wes

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
3,843
Likes
3,788
Makes one wonder if anyone on this forum should be concerned with sound quality at all, as long as everything in the chain measures well :p;)

Psychological studies show trolls tend to be male, show higher levels of psychopathy traits — low levels of empathy, guilt and responsibility for their actions — and higher levels of sadism traits, the enjoyment of causing others physical and psychological pain.
 

NoMoFoNo

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
261
Likes
325
Your question, if it is a question and not rhetorical, doesn't make sense to me. The point of this site is measurement, validation of engineering, validation of design competence, confirmation of measurable performance. If ASR arrives at a point in the near future wherein there exists a large usable database of many speakers, similar to what has been done with DACs, it will allow the wise consumer to choose speakers that perform well, and will (more importantly to me) allow choices of high-performing speakers that also meet very affordable price points.

Back to your statement, if everything in the chain measures well, and is transparent, that is high quality of sound.


Makes one wonder if anyone on this forum should be concerned with sound quality at all, as long as everything in the chain measures well :p;)
 

Incursio

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
57
Likes
97
Location
Japan
Makes one wonder if anyone on this forum should be concerned with sound quality at all, as long as everything in the chain measures well :p;)


That's a strawman argument.

If everything in the chain measures well, it means it is audibly transparent, which means we can worry about sound quality where it really matters:
transducers (speakers and headphones) and recording quality. ;)
 

Jarrett

Active Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
126
Likes
119
Don't feel so attacked. I thought it was an interesting thought :) Maybe you'll end up with something that sounds like studio gear.
 

Incursio

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
57
Likes
97
Location
Japan
Don't feel so attacked. I thought it was an interesting thought :) Maybe you'll end up with something that sounds like studio gear.


Or maybe you'll end up like some subjective forum hillbilly talking about imaginary differences between DACs. I think that's an interesting thought.:p;)
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,949
Likes
22,628
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Makes one wonder if anyone on this forum should be concerned with sound quality at all, as long as everything in the chain measures well :p;)

Only if that 'one wonder'ing isn't paying attention...at all...or is a troll.
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,204
Likes
16,986
Location
Riverview FL
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
That's a strawman argument.

If everything in the chain measures well, it means it is audibly transparent, which means we can worry about sound quality where it really matters:
transducers (speakers and headphones) and recording quality. ;)
Very well said - I agree wholeheartedly. If you can remove variables from the chain, we can focus resources on what's left.
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
Don't feel so attacked. I thought it was an interesting thought :) Maybe you'll end up with something that sounds like studio gear.
You mean like the One Series from Genelec which has been universally praised by BOTH pros and consumers alike for their amazing "musical" qualities? Perfectly matched DAC + amplifier + preamp section upstream and well measured FR transmission downstream. So yes, money willing (and my wife), maybe one day I'll end up with the Genelec 8351b.
 
OP
Inkey31

Inkey31

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
126
Likes
50
So, basically people selling DAC's at 2k are more or less ripping you off? Especially when you have a Topping or SMLS dac that has the same numbers at a quarter of the cost?

This dac https://www.moon-audio.com/matrix-audio-x-sabre-pro.html , the Matrix X has no better audible difference then something like the D90 or M500? Honest question.

I find that insane, its probably so much cheaper to pump out DACs in China or Jap. These companies are probably eastern EU or American and that the cost is higher? Or do you think they use better parts?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom