Revel M16 Speaker Review

[Spocko]

The change when reproducing an orchestral mass is abysmal. The first time you hear it with OB you never forget it! Of course, large DIY OB loudspeakers supported with two DIY 18" closed subwoofer and... a very Big room (that is the usual problem).

Is it fair to say that recreating the "orchestral mass" in a small room is impossible, even with DSP (whether Lyngdorf, Kii or D&D) - or is this commonly done successfully with the right room treatment/DSP?

 

[amirm]

Speaking of subwoofer augmentation, how long until we start seeing those measured? I'm sure the low directivity with low frequencies will make this difficult, along with the necessary room size (e.g. following the half-wavelength theory you would need a room >= 28.25' for 20 Hz).

I have a sub in for review so soon. With Klippel system, subs are actually much easier to measure since their soundfield is not complex. Room size is not an issue since they use acoustic holography to remove the effect of reflections.

 

[Spocko]

I have a sub in for review so soon. With Klippel system, subs are actually much easier to measure since their soundfield is not complex. Room size is not an issue since they use acoustic holography to remove the effect of reflections.

THIS IS AMAZING. Current measurements require people drag their sub 500 yards into an empty field!

 

[Jon AA]

Is it fair to say that recreating the "orchestral mass" in a small room is impossible, even with DSP (whether Lyngdorf, Kii or D&D) - or is this commonly done successfully with the right room treatment/DSP?

I've got some native Auro 3D recordings that come as close as you're ever going to get. Trying to get anywhere close to as "real sounding" as that with two speakers is like trying to win an F1 race in a minivan.

 

[amirm]

THIS IS AMAZING. Current measurements require people drag their sub 500 yards into an empty field!

Indeed. I get a kick out of hearing other reviewers saying their "sub testing season is over" due to winter coming with snow and such.

 

[MickeyBoy]

Btw, in this article Kevin Voecks is not stating exactly the type of XO but he is saying it is of "high order" which more strikes me to be LR4 than LR2.

And XO point is at 2100Hz, not 2000.

Revel is known for high-order covers.

 

[Bhh]

Trying to get anywhere close to as "real sounding" as that with two speakers is like trying to win an F1 race in a minivan.

Off topic warning: F1 season starts next weekend! Wohoo!

 

[ex audiophile]

Revel is known for high-order covers.

and for musical embroidery in ambient spaces.

 

[jhaider]

Indeed. I get a kick out of hearing other reviewers saying their "sub testing season is over" due to winter coming with snow and such.

Can you do the kind of max SPL testing that Josh Ricci or James Larson do with your NFS?

Can your microphone handle the SPL from a good subwoofer at extremely close proximity?

 

[laudio]

I want to see a review of these - think they will give the Revels a run for the money on the the old Spinorama. On sale now!


https://tinyurl.com/tunnvyl

 

[Sal1950]

@amirm, Sorry if I missed it but I searched this thread a few times. Was the sensitivity of this speaker measured. I could couldn't find it and wondering where it is compared to the stated spec of 86dB (2.83V @ 1M)?
TIA

 

[Schackmannen]

@amirm, Sorry if I missed it but I searched this thread a few times. Was the sensitivity of this speaker measured. I could couldn't find it and wondering where it is compared to the stated spec of 86dB (2.83V @ 1M)?
TIA

As you can see on the left side of the graph the spinorama is normalized to 2.83 V @ 1m so the spec looks pretty accurate.

 

[amirm]

@amirm, Sorry if I missed it but I searched this thread a few times. Was the sensitivity of this speaker measured. I could couldn't find it and wondering where it is compared to the stated spec of 86dB (2.83V @ 1M)?
TIA

For all passive speakers, the sensitivity is the same as what is shown in the frequency response measurement (on-axis). This is because I set the excitation voltage at 2.83 volts.

You can choose what portion of the response you care about:

If you go by where I have drawn the line, it is 85 dB. It is higher in bass around 100 Hz. And much lower as you go down < 70 Hz.

 

[maty]

Is it fair to say that recreating the "orchestral mass" in a small room is impossible, even with DSP (whether Lyngdorf, Kii or D&D) - or is this commonly done successfully with the right room treatment/DSP?

You can try with different DSP but it is not the same. Sometimes, if the recording is not very good it can improve the sound.

The better the sound, the more you notice the differences with the manipulations of the sound. In my case I only use just enough for a slight equalization of my modded KEF Q100, minimizing the variation in the phase produced with rePhase -> convolution filter.

* https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/page-7#post-225351

* https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...inimum-phase-vs-linear-phase.8762/post-253826

My advantage is that I usually listen in the near field and Zvu made great measurements (Q100, LS50 and R300).

At 30-40-50º

[IMG, link] https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts/kef-q100-fabricka-30-40-50-zvu-png.32991/


If the room is not very large, there are a DIY speakers that promise. In OB it is very difficult to get a flat frequency response in axis. GR-Researh NX-Studio aka Studio Monitors. Measurements:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167137.msg1774346#msg1774346

Sonicjoy has a new thread, the first, about the building: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=168181.0

- End off topic -

 

[QMuse]

The "8 additional spatial information" is not necessarily a good thing, because LW is an average. Just like frequency response smoothing can be misleading, spatial averaging can be misleading too. In particular, it can make variations at individual angles appear smaller than they really are.

Consider this: there could very well be frequency response anomalies that shift in frequency depending on angle, because they are related to the difference in distance between speaker elements (e.g. interference, diffraction). That's a real problem that could be audible, just not always at the same frequencies depending on what specific angle you happen to listen at right now. But because of the way the averaging works, if you take the average of multiple angles where the anomalies are not aligned in frequency, you might get a response that looks much flatter than any actual response you can get at any angle.

That's not to say that the opposite, that LW is meaningless, is true, of course. LW is useful because it can tell you if some feature at a given frequency in the on-axis response is specific to the 0° angle or if it persists over small angles as well, which is useful information especially if you want to determine what kind of anomaly you are looking at (resonance, interference, diffraction, etc.). That's why the standard spinorama includes both on-axis and LW; one is not "better" than the other, they serve different purposes and it's really the combination of the two that's most useful, not one in isolation.

IMO on-axis is of no practical usage as it is a singlle measuremetn taken strictly at axis. Move 5 deg in any direction and you will get another response. If you want to get a picture of the on-axis response in a more narrow fashion than what LW does according to CEA-2034 it would be better to take 8 measurements at, for exampe, +/-3 deg, +/-6 deg and +/-10 deg horizontally and +/-5 deg vertically and average it with on-axis included.

 

[MZKM]

IMO on-axis is of no practical usage as it is a singlle measuremetn taken strictly at axis. Move 5 deg in any direction and you will get another response. If you want to get a picture of the on-axis response in a more narrow fashion than what LW does according to CEA-2034 it would be better to take 8 measurements at, for exampe, +/-3 deg, +/-6 deg and +/-10 deg horizontally and +/-5 deg vertically and average it with on-axis included.

Yes, listening window is for multiple seats. For a realistic response for a single listener at the MLP with full toe-in, I’d say 0° to +/-5°H & +/-5°V, 10°H is unlikely.

 

[QMuse]

For a realistic response for a single listener at the MLP with full toe-in, I’d say 0° to +/-5°H & +/-5°V, 10°H is unlikely.

That really depends not only on the ammount of toe-in but on the spekers to LP distance as well. Anyway, make it 0° to +/-3°H, +/-5°H & +/-3°V for a single seat LP, as using single on-axis measurement to describe anything is utter nonsense.

 

[tuga]

That really depends not only on the ammount of toe-in but on the spekers to LP distance as well.

They're probably related, no?

And I know some speakers such as the Dali's are designed so that the axis should be parallel to the side walls, not a good desing in my view, but shouldn't speakers be pointing at the listener anyway? Not toe'ing in shouldn't be an option.

 

[MZKM]

They're probably related, no?

And I know some speakers such as the Dali's are designed so that the axis should be parallel to the side walls, not a good desing in my view, but shouldn't speakers be pointing at the listener anyway? Not toe'ing in shouldn't be an option.

The only reason for no toe-in to be intended is either knowing your customer base (<$200/pair) or the designer favored controlled directivity over a good on-axis FR.

 

[QMuse]

The only reason for no toe-in to be intended is either knowing your customer base (<$200/pair) or the designer favored controlled directivity over a good on-axis FR.

Actually it is something in betweeen no toe-in and aiming directly toward listener that is perceived optimal by most folks when LP is 2m and more. Such medium toe-in is something you will typically find as a recommendation in user mannuals of many floorstanders.