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Klipsch R-41M Bookshelf Speaker Review

martijn86

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Are all Klipsch speakers really poor, their Scalas hve some of the worst measurements I have ever seen.
Keith
Personally, I still want to hear their klipschorn. I've heard many of their 'regular' speakers however and they are what I like to think of as hometheatre speakers. Very bright and sharp, putting a lot of emphasis on spacial effects. Not something I enjoy listening to two channel music on. Their Heritage series isn't more refined or anything but they're fun. Sometimes you get bored of a neutral response and you want to rock out with a different sound. That's what the Heritage speakers that I've heard were about imo.
 

Doodski

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Personally, I still want to hear their klipschorn. I've heard many of their 'regular' speakers however and they are what I like to think of as hometheatre speakers. Very bright and sharp, putting a lot of emphasis on spacial effects. Not something I enjoy listening to two channel music on. Their Heritage series isn't more refined or anything but they're fun. Sometimes you get bored of a neutral response and you want to rock out with a different sound. That's what the Heritage speakers that I've heard were about imo.
I've listened to the Klipschorn for several days in total at a buddy's place. They sounded great on specific music and then the rest was a let down. Room dimensions are also very important due to the corner horn nature of them.
 

andreasmaaan

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It doesn't necessarily mean that crossover design is bad, you just might be measuring above the optimal axis.

In general yes, but in this case the start of the woofer's step preceeds the tweeter's. That would mean the measurement took place below the optimal axis, which would be strange if the measurement were taken on axis with the tweeter.
 
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MZKM

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Defining the "neutral curve" based on what the majority prefers makes absolutely no sense at all (unless you are a speaker manufacturer that is).
Just look at the singles charts for an example of majority preference...

I'd rather stick with the Brüel & Kjær target in-room curve.
In the Preference Rating formula, Olive does describe target curves (using log-spacing), and I calculate in my spreadsheets how far that speaker's PIR is from the target PIR (under the SPL Specs tab), this Klipsch has a 1dB shallower slope and will likely be described as Bright.
 

MZKM

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Also it's worth noting that the labeled 'resonances' in the treble are present in all the klippel measurements so far. I still think these are inherent to the rig; they are always small bumps present around 5K, 7K, and 9K, with matching small dips around 6K and 8K.
And a dip ~10kHz.

It likely wold be fixed if the microphone calibration was loaded (I'm guessing it's not as straight forward as it is in say REW, and hence why Amir hasn't done it yet).
 

napilopez

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Defining the "neutral curve" based on what the majority prefers makes absolutely no sense at all (unless you are a speaker manufacturer that is).
Just look at the singles charts for an example of majority preference...

I'd rather stick with the Brüel & Kjær target in-room curve.

To be fair, 'preference' can mean a lot of things. Harman's target curves are derived from the most preferred speakers in blind tests, not computed from mathematical absolutes. But defining curves based on what's most popular is definitely not something I think makes sense.
 

Prana Ferox

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Klipschorns and La Scalas are ancient designs kept around as novelties. Their charm isn't fidelity, it's being ancient.

I lived in a college house with a pair of La Scalas abandoned by a previous tenant. They excelled at their purpose of blasting the neighborhood at odd hours and being impervious to drunken abuse.
 

gr-e

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In general yes, but in this case the start of the woofer's step preceeds the tweeter's.
U sure? The woofer step needs to start a bit earlier to smoothly blend with tweeter's response.
Same happens in stereophile's rp-600 review and JA gave the same comment as I did.
 

napilopez

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And a dip ~10kHz.

It likely wold be fixed if the microphone calibration was loaded (I'm guessing it's not as straight forward as it is in say REW, and hence why Amir hasn't done it yet).

Had we determined these bumps to be related to mic calbration? I thought that just accounted for a bit of the broad response in the top octave. The bumps seems a bit exaggerated to be a mic issue to me, especially on a relatively high end mic. My Umik doesn't show bumps that broad even with the calibration turned off. I'd assumed they were reflections off the klippel rig itself.
 

hardisj

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Had we determined these bumps to be related to mic calbration? I thought that just accounted for a bit of the sloping down of the response in the top octave. Seems a bit exagerated to be a mic issue to me, especially on a relatively high end mic. My Umik doesn't show bumps that broad even with the calibration turned off. I'd assumed they were reflections off the klippel rig itself.

I'd suspect a reflection before I'd suspect a calibration issue. Calibration is typically to remove the breakup that occurs and correct the drooping response afterward. If anything, it looks like textbook comb filtering.

Edit: I would also assume that if it were a comb filter issue caused by a reflection in the apparatus, the multiple measurement points would have smoothed that out.
 

Sancus

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And a dip ~10kHz.

It likely wold be fixed if the microphone calibration was loaded (I'm guessing it's not as straight forward as it is in say REW, and hence why Amir hasn't done it yet).

The mic calibration seems to increase dips over 10khz if this post was done correctly? And it has negligible effect below 10khz.

I feel like measurement issues between 5-10khz are much more important than >10khz though in any case. If those bumps are really a consistent measurement issue, hopefully they can be worked out.
 

gr-e

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index.php


index.php
@amirm you posted horizontal graphs twice instead of vertical
 

Prana Ferox

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Defining the "neutral curve" based on what the majority prefers makes absolutely no sense at all

I agree and that was my point, since the vast majority of speakers (like these) are bought on name recognition and decorum compatibility, with reviews -possibly- factored in, and likely having never been listened to at all, let alone critically. I bet Amazon sells boatloads of these.
 

mhardy6647

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I dunno -- maybe it's just me, but odd-colo(u)red, injection-mo(u)lded-looking speaker driver cones make me think K-Mart/Walmart grade componentry. :confused: And, yes, I am lookin' at you, KEF LS50! ;)

As to Klipsch & marketing -- like Harley-Davidson (at least, the H-D of yore), they know their target market well. Very well indeed after 7 decades. :)
They weren't going for the Darjeeling-quaffing, pinkie-in-the-air audiophile market, then or now.

another year klipsch by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

... dating back to the Colonel himself.

CEDIA-No-BS-buttons-social by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

PWK-BS fashions by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

with my apologies for the coarse language in those images!


I lived with a pair of Cornies Cornwalls for a decade, so I feel that I know whereof I speak, Klipsch-wise. :)
 

napilopez

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The mic calibration seems to increase dips over 10khz if this post was done correctly? And it has negligible effect below 10khz.

I feel like measurement issues between 5-10khz are much more important than >10khz though in any case. If those bumps are really a consistent measurement issue, hopefully they can be worked out.

I'd suspect a reflection before I'd suspect a calibration issue. Calibration is typically to remove the breakup that occurs and correct the drooping response afterward. If anything, it looks like textbook comb filtering.

Yep, that's what I thought.

I'd posted this comparison in another thread. Not trying to get into a measurement drama, just showing for reference on the consistency of these bumps. Same patterns as the Klipsch. The red is amir's measurement, the blue and white are two of my measurements of two different kh80s with two different Umik 1s and two different calibrations.

KH80 repeatability (1).png
I believe @ctrl was the first to identify the consistency of the bumps. Again, bumps at 5K, 7K, and 9K, dips at 6K and 8K.

That said, the bumps seem so consistent that there should be a way to incorporate them into a calibration file, no? Seem to remain similar in magnitude even off axis, though I'd have to check the graphs for every review and match scaling/import curves to be sure.

Ultimately the bumps don't bother me much because they are consistent between reviews, fairly small, and evenly spaced out. I don't think they'd present an significantly audible issue even if they were really present in the speaker.

But it's worth keeping in mind in the context of reviews going forward;I don't think it's fair to call these resonances for the klipsch when they are present in all the other reviews.
 

andreasmaaan

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U sure? The woofer step needs to start a bit earlier to smoothly blend with tweeter's response.
Same happens in stereophile's rp-600 review and JA gave the same comment as I did.

Let's assume that the measurement was taken above the optimal axis. In that case, the tweeter would be relatively closer to the mic than the woofer (than it should be), and you would expect to see the woofer's step delayed in relation to the tweeter's.

But what you see is that the tweeter's step is actually delayed in relation to the woofer's. That means that the tweeter is further away than it should be. To get closer to the tweeter (or to be precise, further away from the woofer), you need to move the mic up, not down.

For reference, this is what an ideal step response would look like for a speaker like this (2nd order XO @2kHz, BR box tuned to 80-ish Hz):

1582145952365.png


As you can see, the tweeter is supposed to "hand over" to the woofer (to borrow JA's terminology).

But in this speaker's case, the woofer's output is already arriving at the mic before the tweeter's begins to. The tweeter is around 0.2ms "late" on the measurement axis Amir used, which was presumably on axis with the tweeter:

1582146097716.png
 
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