Evidence-based Speaker Designs

[Wombat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker
Waveguide horns
The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading. All horns have some pattern control, and all waveguides provide a degree of acoustic loading, so the difference between a waveguide and a horn is a matter of judgement.[41]

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/163581-difference-waveguide-horn.html

Dispersion control above 7-8kHz gets tricky because the wavelength is smaller than driver or throat diameter.

Anyway I hold my opinion, that the major effect, benefit and reason to use it is below 7-8kHz, where" loading" and directivy increase.

Wiki says they are horns albeit with low acoustic loading. I think that is a modern definition for a short horn.

Disclosure: I spent years looking into horn theory and practice, most of which I can't recall without reference to notes.

In the end you love 'em or hate 'em it seems. I'm for the former.

 

[Sergei]

Anyway I hold my opinion, that the major effect, benefit and reason to use it is below 7-8kHz, where" loading" and directivy increase.

I agree with you in the context of one listener (who can remain in a narrow sweet spot) in a highly-reflective room (where you really want to narrow the dispersion in the crossover to ~7 KHz region).

For home theater in a room full of sound-absorbing surfaces, widening the dispersion above ~7 KHz is more valuable in my opinion. Best is of course to have the dispersion as uniform at all frequencies as theoretically achievable, and many modern studio monitors come darn close to that.

 

[Cosmik]

I believe we are converging our understandings. I accept the validity of statements in the first reference, including:

"In the loudspeaker without dispersion control, the frequency region 1-7 kHz region can be seen to be very wide so in rooms with less than ideal acoustics, the loudspeaker will sound colored".

I would say that the only room where it wouldn't sound coloured would be an anechoic chamber. The suggestion otherwise is that the room can somehow be treated in an ideal complementary way that somehow fixes the poor dispersion of the speaker. I think this is a misunderstanding: poor dispersion cannot be fixed with room treatments or anything else.

 

[2020]

Any updates to this thread or further ideas? It's a great resource.

 

[Ilkless]

Any updates to this thread or further ideas? It's a great resource.

Not really except that I have heard HEDD, Genelec and Focal monitors finally. The Focal Shape 65 had a rough treble and hollow sound. I suspect a very broad and subtle low-Q upper midrange peak. Type 07 had amazing midbass (think I heard some port colouration though) but disappointing off-axis, also a touch recessed on the upper midrange and low treble. Genelec definitely the best balance and off-axis from midbass up. I went to check the datasheet and it rises very very slightly from bass to treble so that may be why it sounded a touch light. HEDD midbass with Genelec smoothness, low diffraction and directivity control would be the dream in the size range.

As well as the KH420. The Neumann was utterly superlative.

I want to hear some German actives. Can any German members can point me the way to an English-speaking EMES and/or KS Digital dealer?

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

I would say that the only room where it wouldn't sound coloured would be an anechoic chamber. The suggestion otherwise is that the room can somehow be treated in an ideal complementary way that somehow fixes the poor dispersion of the speaker. I think this is a misunderstanding: poor dispersion cannot be fixed with room treatments or anything else.

You can absorb the early reflections with acoustic panels.

 

[Rollomoto]

I would add GGNTKT to the list of evidence-based speaker, since they use some advance technology: https://ggntkt.de/en/

 

[q3cpma]

I would add GGNTKT to the list of evidence-based speaker, since they use some advance technology: https://ggntkt.de/en/

Quite interesting. Looks like a mix between a JBL and a Grimm. That graph especially looks like Genelec's MDE (GGNTK's simulation looks less complete, though):

This model 1 sounds especially nice with its wide baffle, external electronics, sealed CNC high density polymer enclosure and general high quality. D&D, Grimm and Kii have a serious competitor with a serious pricing.
Now, if only one of those brands could provide an open source library or CLI application to handle them, I'd be on my knees.

 

[Biblob]

I would add GGNTKT to the list of evidence-based speaker, since they use some advance technology: https://ggntkt.de/en/

What an awesome brand. Really like their design.
For woofers they use a SB Acoustics SB-NBAC35 type, maybe with some adjustments. I recognize the woofer

 

[Ilkless]

I would add GGNTKT to the list of evidence-based speaker, since they use some advance technology: https://ggntkt.de/en/

Are you German by any chance? I have found many many obscure engineering-centric German speaker brands but I'm sure there are more so it'd be great if you could share more with us. Canton, Heco, KS Digital, EMES, Abacus, Audio Optimum and Bohne are just a few. The actives from Abacus (somehow producing in Germany, custom class AB amps and DSP in a sane price range), KSD (SEAS coaxial with phase linearisation and time alignment, steel enclosure, biamplification) and EMES (relatively affordable, large moulded waveguides, using drivers known to be well-engineered like Scanspeak 8545) are the most interesting for me yet English-language documentation is sparse.

 

[2020]

I would add GGNTKT to the list of evidence-based speaker, since they use some advance technology: https://ggntkt.de/en/

That's really cool. My question though is, what is the price? I can't find anywhere you would buy them and I can't find prices anywhere. The language barrier doesn't help either!

And how much does off axis response ultimately make a difference though? I guess it makes a lot of sense for hifi purposes, but if you are using studio monitors as intended, you won't be moving much off axis at all. I'm at my computer all the time so id be on axis 24/7. I understand they also effect to reflections coming back and there are things like Harmon's listening window and whatnot, but I also have this feeling in the back of my mind that tells me to not believe all the hype.

I really wish i could demo some of these speakers, but I'm not in that kind of position.

 

[Ilkless]

That's really cool. My question though is, what is the price? I can't find anywhere you would buy them and I can't find prices anywhere. The language barrier doesn't help either!

And how much does off axis response ultimately make a difference though? I guess it makes a lot of sense for hifi purposes, but if you are using studio monitors as intended, you won't be moving much off axis at all. I'm at my computer all the time so id be on axis 24/7. I understand they also effect to reflections coming back and there are things like Harmon's listening window and whatnot, but I also have this feeling in the back of my mind that tells me to not believe all the hype.

I really wish i could demo some of these speakers, but I'm not in that kind of position.

5900euro per pair including power amps and DSP it seems.

https://ggntkt.de/en/preise-und-verfuegbarkeit/

 

[2020]

5900euro per pair including power amps and DSP it seems.

https://ggntkt.de/en/preise-und-verfuegbarkeit/

ok, deuces. I'm out.

 

[Sancus]

5900euro per pair including power amps and DSP it seems.

That does include VAT, so IF their specs and directivity diagrams are accurate, it's a pretty competitive price. If they're not sold outside Germany, though, importing probably adds too much hassle and cost.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

That does include VAT, so IF their specs and directivity diagrams are accurate, it's a pretty competitive price. If they're not sold outside Germany, though, importing probably adds too much hassle and cost.

As one who has bought a Smyth A16 Realiser, I can attest that importing probably won't be all that much of a problem, particularly outside the European Union, where one will not have to pay VAT--just import duties and freight.

They are an odd shape, however, being wider than they are tall. They're 17" X 12.5" x 5.5" (W X H X D), and weigh a good 25 lb each, so they'll need a very good speaker stand, and like the D & D they need to be close to the rear wall to properly do their bass. Cardiod effect does not go as low as the D & D's either, and only go down to 40 hz, but at that price with all electronics...

The electronic package also looks rather pedestrian. At .003 Sinad at 1 kz @ 1watt, they will not perform at NC400 levels of excellence.

Probably more important by far to get the room radiatio right, however, and even the basic lower powered amplification will blow most anyone out of a reasonably sized listening room, so there's that.

 

[thewas]

Are you German by any chance? I have found many many obscure engineering-centric German speaker brands but I'm sure there are more so it'd be great if you could share more with us. Canton, Heco, KS Digital, EMES, Abacus, Audio Optimum and Bohne are just a few. The actives from Abacus (somehow producing in Germany, custom class AB amps and DSP in a sane price range), KSD (SEAS coaxial with phase linearisation and time alignment, steel enclosure, biamplification) and EMES (relatively affordable, large moulded waveguides, using drivers known to be well-engineered like Scanspeak 8545) are the most interesting for me yet English-language documentation is sparse.

Unfortunately most of the loudspeakers of brands you mention above are not so great in terms of smooth directivity/radiation, there is a reason that rather German companies like Neumann etc or even the new GGNTKT are more known in forums outside of Germany.

 

[Ilkless]

Unfortunately most of the loudspeakers of brands you mention above are not so great in terms of smooth directivity/radiation, there is a reason that rather German companies like Neumann etc or even the new GGNTKT are more known in forums outside of Germany.

You have any measurements for the other brands? I saw pretty high-res Emes Black measurements and it had excellent polars, which got my curiosity going. I'm looking for more options in the 7-inch 2-way active class because HEDD and Genelec were both slightly underwhelming and the measurements for both corroborate with what I heard. The S2V is way too expensive for me.

Also, I didn't know GGNTKT has been getting mentions overseas. I stumbled on them once on Aktives-Hoeren (my goto for finding obscure actives from small manufacturers), but thought they were still only well-known in Germany.

 

[thewas]

From Emes I have measurements of the original EMES black tv HR active of S&R (6/2016) which aren't that great, from Canton and HECO I have dozens of measurements of the German magazines AUDIO and Stereoplay, from KSD there are measurements of S&R too like this https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...tudiomonitor-mit-firtec-equalization-im-test/, from Abacus there don't exist such measurements but you can see from the driver choice and lack of waveguides that the directivity won't be very smooth. From Bohne I have only seen some measurements at the listeners position without and with Dirac but its again quite obvious that at least vertical directivity won't be very continuous.

 

[Ilkless]

From Emes I have measurements of the original EMES black tv HR active of S&R (6/2016) which aren't that great, from Canton and HECO I have dozens of measurements of the German magazines AUDIO and Stereoplay, from KSD there are measurements of S&R too like this https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...tudiomonitor-mit-firtec-equalization-im-test/, from Abacus there don't exist such measurements but you can see from the driver choice and lack of waveguides that the directivity won't be very smooth. From Bohne I have only seen some measurements at the listeners position without and with Dirac but its again quite obvious that at least vertical directivity won't be very continuous.

Could you PM me the EMES black measurements? The ones I have seen from Tools4Music look really good, especially the polars. The 10kHz null is a reflection off the tweeter-midbass transition, the Kali IN-8 has it too, as do pretty much every coax except Genelec , TAD, Technics and KEF. It fills in in the listening window so I'm not that worried about it. Amir's measurements of the IN-8 show that. Measurements of their waveguided non-coaxs would be great as well, their datasheet isn't detailed enough.

The KS I really wanted to like because it had a lot going for it. I even asked them directly if they would do a custom one with a flat midbass because +/-1dB from 250Hz to 9kHz with good polars is very impressive, particularly with phase linearisation + time alignment, coax and biamplification at the price. They said it could be EQ'd if I wanted to, which is correct but also unsatisfactory. Plus their own measurements didn't show the null from 150-250Hz S&R had. I traced the high-res S&R graph and no matter how I smoothed it I couldn't remove the null, so not sure how it was measured.

Also the Canton actives measure much better from what I have seen.

 

[thewas]

The ones I have seen from Tools4Music look really good, especially the polars. The 10kHz null is a reflection off the tweeter-midbass transition, the Kali IN-8 has it too, as do pretty much every coax except Genelec , TAD, Technics and KEF. It fills in in the listening window so I'm not that worried about it. Amir's measurements of the IN-8 show that.

Yes, the measurements of the Emes MK4 are fine (although I personally find it too expensive for just a Seas 2-way coax), I also own KEF and Kali coaxial speakers and know that the coax-usual high frequency null isn't a big problem when it fills under angles, the MK1? ones have though much other problems, you got PM.