John Atkinson's of Stereophile Talks About Measurements

[March Audio]

I'd put it a bit differently. If it measures good and sounds bad, you've measured the wrong thing. If it measures bad and sounds good, you like distortion.

And yet I have never heard a good measuring bit of kit sound bad

I have asked many times over the years for people to point out products that measure good and sound bad. I have never received one single response.

 

[tuga]

John Atkinson's of Stereophile Talks About Measurements here too:

 

[Hugo9000]

I keep forgetting to look for a random forum on the internet where someone made a negative comment about something I bought or that was given to me, so that I can create an account and make a dozen or so posts in protest. I'll be sure to remain coy about my motivations, and never give any coherent reason/explanation of how I arrived at owning this item, or how or why I like it, and why anyone else could possibly care.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

You are correct in that you should trust your ears. What you shouldn't do is trust your judgement as this isn't just based upon what you ears hear. Measurements aren't variable in this way and far more trustworthy.

My sound judgement is based on what I personally hear not solely through instrument measurement data.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

I keep forgetting to look for a random forum on the internet where someone made a negative comment about something I bought or that was given to me, so that I can create an account and make a dozen or so posts in protest. I'll be sure to remain coy about my motivations, and never give any coherent reason/explanation of how I arrived at owning this item, or how or why I like it, and why anyone else could possibly care.

Ditto.

 

[majingotan]

My sound judgement is based on what I personally hear not solely through instrument measurement data.

Is the BP DAC the only DAC you've ever had in your possession?

 

[Deleted member 13130]

I'd put it a bit differently. If it measures good and sounds bad, you've measured the wrong thing. If it measures bad and sounds good, you like distortion.

Sounding ‘good or bad’ is subjective.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

Is the BP DAC the only DAC you've ever had in your possession?

No.

 

[mansr]

Sounding ‘good or bad’ is subjective.

How's this then? If it measures good and sounds bad, you're playing the wrong kind of music.

 

[March Audio]

My sound judgement is based on what I personally hear not solely through instrument measurement data.

Im afraid its not. Its based on what you hear plus other influences and biases. Brand, price, aesthetics etc and lack of controls in the audition.

These other influences and lack of controls lead you to draw inaccurate conclusions.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

Im afraid its not. Its based on what you hear plus other influences and biases. Brand, price, aesthetics etc and any relevant lack of controls in the audition.

I agree that my sound judgement (or anyone’s) isn’t based solely one thing (nor should it be) but rather on many varying factors that one can & cannot measure.

 

[murraycamp]

but rather on many varying factors that one can & cannot measure.

Like Magic!

 

[SIY]

I agree that my sound judgement (or anyone’s) isn’t based solely one thing (nor should it be) but rather on many varying factors that one can & cannot measure.

It's easy to determine if a "sound judgment" is actually based on sound or not: test things ears-only, i.e., level matched and double blind. If you can distinguish between two sources that way, your observations are demonstrably about the sound and your ears. Without those basic controls, you're playing make-believe, and your preferences may have zero to do with the actual sound.

The stuff about liking live music being in opposition to making objective judgments is errant nonsense, though sadly very common in the fashion audio niche, which is fueled by bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

It's easy to determine if a "sound judgment" is actually based on sound or not: test things ears-only, i.e., level matched and double blind. If you can distinguish between two sources that way, your observations are demonstrably about the sound and your ears. Without those basic controls, you're playing make-believe, and your preferences may have zero to do with the actual sound.

The stuff about liking live music being in opposition to making objective judgments is errant nonsense, though sadly very common in the fashion audio niche, which is fueled by bullshit.

That’s your opinion...not the rule of law regarding a broader audiences audio & listening preferences. I’m not against measurements...albeit that seems to be what’s being interpreted (heard). I don’t know that measurements aren't purposeful around design implementation. Could be...dependent on what’s being measured & how it’s being measured? I’m simply stating it cannot be the sole determining factor regarding the output of sound quality of music that’s heard in your system (in this case the BP DAC). I don’t subscribe to the idea that it sounds bad or is poorly designed (based soley on JA’s measurements). I get it...many here don’t agree with that notion...& that’s ok; it just simply doesn’t change my opinion from my initial post. There are products that don’t measure ‘well‘ and there are products that do...it does not always translate into a meaningful storyboard on device performance (in this case sound quality). If you don’t agree so be it; I don’t make the case that anyone should. I’m just offering my listening experience with the BP DAC to note that I don’t use measurements as the sole indicator of audio performance. I have to put my hands on it & listen to it in my home environment to make a final determination. And yes...as a concert goer; I love the sound of live music...& I have no idea of how the music that’s playing measures? I don’t make the case nor conclude that I’m in favor of audible distortion (as a result of not being objective over it). That’s not my assertion...I would argue...what we hear, regarding those differences, are subjective...& possibly negligible...even with known measurements.

 

[amirm]

I only have my ears to trust as my ears are the only pair of ears that I have to hear with. Whose ears are we to borrow to avoid making ‘poor’ choices?

Your ears are fine. It is the rest of you that is not. The equation 1+X has no specific answer. 1 is your ear. X is your brain.

There are decades of audio research at various research and industry fora. What do you think of the fact that there is not one reference to "trust your ears" in any of that? You all with no technical knowledge all of a sudden got smarter than the top researchers in the world who study this field?

 

[amirm]

I’m simply stating it cannot be the sole determining factor regarding the output of sound quality of music that’s heard in your system (in this case the BP DAC).

So what? How much studying have you done about audio science? I trust none. So why should we value anything you have concluded? Being a patient for a long time (i.e. listener) doesn't make you a doctor (i.e. expert about audio science).

Why is it that folks like you who think audio science doesn't know this and that, seem to know exactly what science knows and doesn't?

You are wasting our time here. You are imparting no knowledge. Just a bunch of beliefs we read over and over again. We know what you think you hear. We hear it too. Don't think you are special. You are not. We are one of you as well as knowing what is wrong with our perception. I suggest joining us and learning the true audio science.

If you want to waste your time, then please go and do it elsewhere. This is not the audience for non-science beliefs.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

So what? How much studying have you done about audio science? I trust none. So why should we value anything you have concluded? Being a patient for a long time (i.e. listener) doesn't make you a doctor (i.e. expert about audio science).

Why is it that folks like you who think audio science doesn't know this and that, seem to know exactly what science knows and doesn't?

You are wasting our time here. You are imparting no knowledge. Just a bunch of beliefs we read over and over again. We know what you think you hear. We hear it too. Don't think you are special. You are not. We are one of you as well as knowing what is wrong with our perception. I suggest joining us and learning the true audio science.

If you want to waste your time, then please go and do it elsewhere. This is not the audience for non-science beliefs.

I’ve not asked anyone to believe anything. I never proclaimed to be an expert in audio science. It’s being inferred by those who chose to do so. I don’t need or seek validation as to whether I’m special (or not). I cannot be personally measured by you or anyone here nor do I seek to measure your personal character. It appears to be the other way around. I didn’t realize this wasn’t a place for a balanced discussion...but rather a closed door that’s anchored in audio science (like minded members only). That is...if you indicate measurements (though informative) aren’t the sole factor around the (albeit) subjective perception of sound quality...a balance between the two ideals (being given equal measure)...all hell breaks loose...in the form of verbal assault, mischaracterizations, & conclusions being inferred around what was stated. I simply stated...for those who may have a remote interest in the BP DAC...to give consideration...not only to the measurements...but also to how the unit may actually perform & sound in their own living space in the chain of their own equipment (given the measurements). I don’t know why that’s counterproductive to what I would think would be a fair pause & open discussion around measurements & sound quality (on any device). I happen to think there’s a bridge/link between the (2)...for those willing to give equal consideration to both measurements & how a device actually sounds in their own living space in their chain of equipment...through listening...even if it’s thought to be anecdotal.

As you wish...I bid you farewell...

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

If I'm choosing between a $100dac and a $1000 dac and the $100 one measures as well as the high price one? You bet measurements matter...

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

And yet I have never heard a good measuring bit of kit sound bad

I have asked many times over the years for people to point out products that measure good and sound bad. I have never received one single response.

Exactly.

 

[solderdude]

I happen to think there’s a bridge/link between the (2)...for those willing to give equal consideration to both measurements & how a device actually sounds in their own living space in their chain of equipment...through listening...even if it’s thought to be anecdotal.

There aren't much locals and guys who responded here that does not use their ears. What they tried to tell you is that there is no link between measurements and subjective evaluations. Most here (incl. me) think/suspect you did use your ears. And as Amirm said there is nothing wrong with them (I would add: most likely).

One can believe: there is only measurements and measurements don't matter/say anything.

One can also believe measurements say something but not all can be measured and humans can hear something that isn't shown by measurements.
This is what you (and thousands of others) believe because the hear things and what one hears MUST be true.

It is the last part where most of the regulars/responders here have different views than you have. Mostly because they found out over the years that the brain can deceive you in a very convincing way IF you don't adhere to a certain way of testing while using the ears only.
They (as well as I) know your test method (listening while knowing what is used) results in incorrect assesments.

Let me encourage you to do your audio testing in another (much more difficult and exhausting and time consuming way) and do audibility tests.
This way you can learn about both sides of the medal. Most respondents hear DO already know about both methods and probably have applied both methods and learned from it.
I suggest to stick around and learn about those methods and try it for yourself.

Not everyone is equally patient and have a profound dislike for people that use their ears but interpret incorrectly. That's why some of the replies are snarky and 'rude'.