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Outlaw 2200 M-Block Amplifier Review

FrantzM

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Hope their Pre/Pro and AVR are that good too... Waiting for the reviews of such...
 

mhardy6647

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Iy6XZWcTLbRqRaUXmywVInwhlnN_a5uGtjOmw5YKDc_zraidwgpDjo24scA1X7Lde6PjLq5HIu8o563Uu4VKGjT8SoRAzOWLcPFt4Znm

Blocky enough?


Yes, a value metric would be great. Ideally there would be a variable slider so that each person could weight the formula in favor of price or performance according to their preference. Came up with something similar when I was car shopping (power vs. mpg).

Here's a blast from the past -- although this little firestarter was a stereoblock umm... biblock? fireblock?
;)

1581453863233.png


(borrowed image from teh webz -- oh-so-not-mine...)
 

cjm2077

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Had a look at the schematic for the NAD C320BEE. It isn't class G. The output stage of the power amps is pretty conventional AB. Where the magic is is in the power supply. It has two windings on the transformer, two bridge rectifiers, and a very evil looking semiconductor switch arrangement that appears to deliver a higher power rail in response to large voltage swings being observed on the output of the amplifiers. Switching to the high voltage appears to be inhibited by high current draw on the +ve power rail. This is probably where the idea that the amp responds to different speaker loads comes from (it doesn't directly.) Since there is only one power supply both channels see the same changing rails, whether they need them or not.
I can't say it leaves me with much in the way of good feelings.

Proper class G OTOH is IMHO a no-brainer. Why would you not? Class G runs with two (or more) power rails feeding the output stage. The rail voltages are not switched. The output stage of the amp uses the rail(s) it needs for each output swing.

That's class G as well. Any method that varies the rails in discrete steps is class G. Methods that vary rails continuously are class H. It's a different looking class G than what I've usually seen, which is the multiple fixed rails with diodes, but it's a different way to skin the same cat.
 

martin900

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Someone mentioned NAD's don't age well....I bet you they don't! I've had numerous examples and the pre-BEE series is approaching a doorstop condition.
The idea behind them is very good, cleverely designed and good sounding amps but the build quality is abysmal - packed full of the cheapest Chinese capacitors sometimes placed way too close to hot heatsinks and the soldering job is often poor.
I remember the C370/372 series was known for blowing the PSU caps as they would wiggle around on their solder pads because there was not enough soldering tin applied, it's not uncommon to see the caps bulged because of their intermittent connection.
However from what I know, lots of EU-sold units already had work done to them when they were being sold new.
I had a 370 on the bench and after replacing about 40 capacitors I gave up, it plays but I'm missing bias on one channel, already spent too much time on it.

That said, the Outlaw looks like a well executued, no nonsense amp. The PCB reminds me somehow of older Krells, very tidy.

I'd love to see how it compares to the Belgian/Chinese APart Champ amplifiers. Take a look:
http://www.apart-audio.com/Category...at5=2030_POWER_AMPLIFIERS&productcode=CHAMP-2
And the insides: https://www.mennegat.nl/media/shop_article/champ_2_open.jpg
 
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cjm2077

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Someone mentioned NAD's don't age well....I bet you they don't! I've had numerous examples and the pre-BEE series is approaching a doorstop condition.
The idea behind them is very good, cleverely designed and good sounding amps but the build quality is abysmal - packed full of the cheapest Chinese capacitors sometimes placed way too close to hot heatsinks and the soldering job is often poor.
I remember the C370/372 series was known for blowing the PSU caps as they would wiggle around on their solder pads because there was not enough soldering tin applied, it's not uncommon to see the caps bulged because of their intermittent connection.
However from what I know, lots of EU-sold units already had work done to them when they were being sold new.
I had a 370 on the bench and after replacing about 40 capacitors I gave up, it plays but I'm missing bias on one channel, already spent too much time on it.

That said, the Outlaw looks like a well executued, no nonsense amp. The PCB reminds me somehow of older Krells, very tidy.

I'd love to see how it compares to the Belgian/Chinese APart Champ amplifiers. Take a look:
http://www.apart-audio.com/Category...at5=2030_POWER_AMPLIFIERS&productcode=CHAMP-2
And the insides: https://www.mennegat.nl/media/shop_article/champ_2_open.jpg

I don't know about that. I had a 2400THX amp that was almost indestructible. It lasted me through college up until I was in my late 20's, and that included moving every year (cross country twice), shorting the outputs once, and using it at hearing damaging volume quite often. It was a tank, and I know it's still in use by an old coworker I sold it to. Could be one era vs another for the company.
 

KEW

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Some clever person on this site should come up with an index that shows cost-per-watt-quality. Thus, even if an amp, like this Outlaw, is not 20-bit resolution like the Benchmark, it is also a small fraction of the price for 14 or 16-bit performance. I suspect that Parasound amps, for example, would fall somewhere between, though with their little 1/2-rack things being similar to the Outlaw or not as good, but their higher-end amps being better.
Interesting that you mention Parasound, as the 2200 is made in the same facility:
Don't know about all of Outlaws products, as they have shifted around... But the 2200 was built in Taiwan by the factory that builds the majority of Parasound products.
https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...-processor-vs-avreceiver.113662/#post-1292910

... and a little more info on Outlaw's outsourcing:
The 975 & 5000 are built in mainland China (Nanjing), same factory that builds alot of OE products for NAD, Harman, Bose, Russound.
https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...-processor-vs-avreceiver.113662/#post-1292881
 

Sal1950

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I don't know about that. I had a 2400THX amp that was almost indestructible. It lasted me through college up until I was in my late 20's, and that included moving every year (cross country twice), shorting the outputs once, and using it at hearing damaging volume quite often. It was a tank, and I know it's still in use by an old coworker I sold it to. Could be one era vs another for the company.
I had the same experience. I used 2 2400THX amps switched to bridged mono to drive a pair of 7' tall HSU subwoofers. Ran them for 20 years at high levels without a single issue.. Not only that but they were purchased as open box refurbs or what the case really was, I got them cheap. Still running perfectly till I sold out everything at my retirement.
 

Sal1950

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Nice timing for the review because this is the best deal on these I have ever seen!
Right now, they are selling these at 3 for $799 (works out to $267/ea) with free shipping:
https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/combos.html
Damn, A Marantz 7705 + a Outlaw 7000x power amp for $2599.00? That's one hell of a deal for a 7 channel 130WPC system!
I don't know how they can do it?
 

DonH56

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It's this type of variation in topology that should require specific testing procedures to identify the potential points of weakness, IMVHO. I've been longing to pick up a slim'ish Creek integrated amp, but Class G concerns me, that switching point, if it happens frequently, what becomes of the frequency response, distortion, and other variables in performance?

Good stuff for certain...

We'd have to know the exact point the rails switch over, or look at the power sweeps for any irregularities. Chances are you'll see none in the sweeps; class G has been around a long time and has been well-proven. You need to control the rail switching and such but that is not all that hard. A feedforward circuit switches the rails before the signal needs the extra voltage.


Here's a blast from the past -- although this little firestarter was a stereoblock umm... biblock? fireblock?
;)

View attachment 49737

(borrowed image from teh webz -- oh-so-not-mine...)

Of all the Carver's I heard over the years that is the one I did not like (*). My boss had one running when I walked into the showroom one day and I only listened a few seconds before asking what the heck was wrong with the amp -- it was a Krell or ML amp I was expecting, then he showed me the little Cube off in the corner. Don't know what the problem was but it was not a match made in heaven.

(*) I did have a Blaze Linear 700 that liked to self destruct and take out any speaker connected to it. Didn't sound bad when it worked.
 

Sal1950

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Of all the Carver's I heard over the years that is the one I did not like (*). My boss had one running when I walked into the showroom one day and I only listened a few seconds before asking what the heck was wrong with the amp -- it was a Krell or ML amp I was expecting, then he showed me the little Cube off in the corner. Don't know what the problem was but it was not a match made in heaven.
It might have sounded like tubes. If my memory serves me and the exact model was a M400t, that was the one he marketed after the Stereophile shootout and he used his transfer function tuning to match some Audio Research amp IIRC.

I did have a Blaze Linear 700 that liked to self destruct and take out any speaker connected to it. Didn't sound bad when it worked.
Me too! LOL
 

martin900

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I also had the Flame Linear 700B going pop for no reason at all, somehow the cheap bookshelf Pianocraft speakers connected to it survived.
Took me a few seconds to spot why the VU meter was all in red, there was smoke coming out of the amp! :) Otherwise pretty 'blergh' sounding amps, crude and rough.

Carver never really did the trick for me, I've had the big PT 1800 and 2400 (disguised TFM75) that one could consider one of Carver's better efforts, but still, they were dull and lifeless and some of the models had an audible buzz in the speaker from the 'magnetic field' psu.
 

DonH56

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It might have sounded like tubes. If my memory serves me and the exact model was a M400t, that was the one he marketed after the Stereophile shootout and he used his transfer function tuning to match some Audio Research amp IIRC.

The "t" series came later IIRC. Much different design, allowed you to switch in a resistor to up the output impedance, not sure what else.

I also had the Flame Linear 700B going pop for no reason at all, somehow the cheap bookshelf Pianocraft speakers connected to it survived.
Took me a few seconds to spot why the VU meter was all in red, there was smoke coming out of the amp! :) Otherwise pretty 'blergh' sounding amps, crude and rough.

Mine was an original 700. The 700A was a little better, and I do not recall having more problems with the 700B than with most other amps. I did not own one, but the store I worked (as a tech) carried the line. For the time, when big power amps were becoming all the rage, they sounded decent to me but not as nice as some others. I chose Crown DC-300's for reliable power, Bryston and SAE for the guys who could afford them in the live sound systems, and of course ARC, ML, Krell, Threshold etc. ruled the audiophile roosts.
 

Rick Sykora

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Nice timing for the review because this is the best deal on these I have ever seen!
Right now, they are selling these at 3 for $799 (works out to $267/ea) with free shipping:
https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/combos.html

They must have a few. The same promo over the holidays was $777. Really needed 4, so I passed it up.

Hoping @amirm has a 7000x queued for testing soon!
 
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mhardy6647

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Identically one Flame Linear amp here; I've (literally) never plugged it in. Those of you who know -- know why ;)

1581470786438.png

(didn't really have a photo of it, so I had to enlarge and crop so you could even see it... it's a relatively uncommon 200B -- 100 wpc)

There's also (and I wouldn't admit this just anywhere) a Dynaco ST-400 somewhere in the dank recesses of the basement. That amp I wouldn't even put in the near vicinity of an electrical outlet, much less plug it in...

;)

... but I digress.
 

Sal1950

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had to enlarge and crop so you could even see it... it's a relatively uncommon 200B -- 100 wpc)
Don't remember hearing of it??
My 700B with a Crown IC150A on the front end CA. 1980
PhaseLinear.jpg
 

Rick Sykora

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Identically one Flame Linear amp here; I've (literally) never plugged it in...

There's also (and I wouldn't admit this just anywhere) a Dynaco ST-400 somewhere in the dank recesses of the basement. That amp I wouldn't even put in the near vicinity of an electrical outlet, much less plug it in...

;)

... but I digress.

I bought a working Dynaco ST-120 along with some NAD equipment from a friend. I cleaned up the Dynaco and sold it on ebay. I made enough to pay for the NAD pieces. Even a non-working ST-400 could be worth $200 or more. As I have been downsizing, have sold some of my legacy equipment. Most of it sold for close or more than I paid originally. :oops: I have 2 older AVRs, and I know I would be lucky to get $100 each for them - not even enough to motivate me to deal with shipping them. Shipping can be a hassle, but could just sell locally. You might be surprised what your old equipment is worth!
 
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bigbag34

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I love the sound of old NAD gear but man that power envelope system is dangerous. I gave an old NAD 2100 to a buddy to use as a garage stereo and it only took him one night drinking and tinkering in his garage to push it to clipping and smoke a tweeter. He said literal smoke came from the tweeter.
 

bigbag34

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Not sure if it’s been answered before but I notice the spec of the Outlaw 2200 says max power consumption 600 watts. Obviously it’s a powerful amplifier, does that max power consumption spec correlate to how powerful it is? Does max power consumption tell us anything about how powerful an amplifier is?
 
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