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Measurable aspects of sound perception

PeterZui

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@PeterZui So you mean rather than believing the measurement of a device using a device that was made specifically to measure said device, we should listen to the website who told you to buy $1000 unobtanium cable?

Or we should abandon all review altogether because everyone listen to things differently and can't be measured?

Which one is your point?

Dear ViperScythe, In case we had the techniques and knowledge to make a measuring device that could tell us the sound of an audio set-up, we could better make an audio set-up with the same techniques and knowledge so it would be perfect shouldn't it ?
We know it doesn't work it this easy way. A measuring device can only measure where it is designed for (with limitations) and we might doubt whether it's measurement skills tells anything about our hearing perception.
I don't spent $1000 very easily and certainly not via a website that told me I have to buy one cable. Let's not call each other fools; I have a very dedicated audio dealer in the neighborhood who gives me the opportunity to try something at home for a week or so and the other way around I will give him something of me to try he doesn't know. I will pick in case it sounds OK.
About reviews; I value all (individual) reviews. As soon they are commercially supported, doubt is rising (We all want to earn money, isn't it ?)
From my point of view I've done the most major upgrades in my home stereo setup based on individual reviews of equipment on the internet. And to be honest didn't find anything new to explore on this site....:(
Cheer up, don't leave it all to the wonder measurement machines of amirm; trust some inspirational reviews on the internet, go for it, judge and trust your own ears and brain as the most important measurement system, there is no better :)
 

PeterZui

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Nobody is asking for evidence that consists of guys from companies that sell audio gear claiming they do blind testing on their products and those tests have clearly shown the benefits of their products. Now, if Paul M were to post a video of some tests they did that included third party folks from perhaps some audio magazines, maybe a couple guys from other companies, maybe some invitees from various audio forums to take part in the tests then I'd be interested. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't going to do that though.

There are tests online that have been set up that way...tests to compare lossy vs lossless files, tests comparing cables and dacs, tests comparing speakers, etc. Those tests have mostly shown similar results - basically that the grandiose claims made by audiophiles as regards their golden ears are to a very large degree...bunk. What the published tests have shown, even with speakers, is that the correlation between $$$ and good sound is at best highly tenuous and that the correlation between stuff looking cool and sounding awesome is far far higher sighted than it is blind.

Hi Sgt Earache, I read in your posts many references to blind tests and I was particularly wondering how much blind tests you have done yourself and who sponsored them. Looking forward for your feedback :)
 
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pozz

pozz

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From my point of view I've done the most major upgrades in my home stereo setup based on individual reviews of equipment on the internet. And to be honest didn't find anything new to explore on this site....:(
Cheer up, don't leave it all to the wonder measurement machines of amirm; trust some inspirational reviews on the internet, go for it, judge and trust your own ears and brain as the most important measurement system, there is no better :)
Just FYI, you may not see it this way, but here that statement "trust your own ears and brain as the most important measuring system" is an aggressive, provocative statement. I get you have your intentions but you haven't engaged the discussion other than to state your viewpoint, which against the etiquette of ASR. Viewpoint + some sort of evidence (research publication, book, measurement) is what's expected.
 

solderdude

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A measuring device can only measure where it is designed for (with limitations) and we might doubt whether it's measurement skills tells anything about our hearing perception.

Measuring devices greatly (magnitudes) exceed hearing in all aspects (dynamic range, noise, distortion, amplitude, phase, timing). It says nothing about perception or personal taste.
There is and cannot be any correlation between taste and measurements. They are 2 things that are not linked in any way.

To understand what measurements MAY tell you one needs to take all measurements into account and understand what they actually mean, represent and why and how they were made. This differs from listening to music.

A stereo music signal is just 2 voltages varying over time with a certain relation between them. There is nothing not known in the electrical plane. There is a LOT unknown between the transducer and the mental 'image' that is created in human minds.
 

Wombat

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Hi Wombat, I have a friend who is QA manager and validation specialist and audiophile. I guess you could be the first two but never the last. Please inform me how to validate this perception.:)


I was an ISO 9000 series Senior Lead Auditor for 10 years or so. I can assure you that the person making a claim is always the one who is required to validate it.
 

Wombat

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Hi Sgt Earache, I read in your posts many references to blind tests and I was particularly wondering how much blind tests you have done yourself and who sponsored them. Looking forward for your feedback :)

Blind testing in audio is well documented and well established as a reliable test method when done appropriately. You don't know that? o_O

Your question is similar to expecting one to personally do a bacteria test on jars of yoghurt before consumption.
 

PeterZui

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Blind testing in audio is well documented and well established as a reliable test method when done appropriately. You don't know that? o_O

Your question is similar to expecting one to personally do a bacteria test on jars of yoghurt before consumption.

Sorry Wombat, Couldn't validate your sentences as an answer to my questions, As an ex-auditor you might do better........
 

PeterZui

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I was an ISO 9000 series Senior Lead Auditor for 10 years or so. I can assure you that the person making a claim is always the one who is required to validate it.

Cheer up Wombat :):):):):), this is no pharmaceuticals, enteral nutrition, nuclear industry or .... At least I think so...For me this is about audio, music and enjoyment and we luckily do not have to validate for auditors except take care of our own good feeling. I do not wish to bring my wine to a lab, get it chemically & microbiological analyzed and have the "measurement report". It says little to nothing about the taste so I better open the bottle, pour in, maybe wait a little, smell it and take a gulp. Then I have the (personal) perception. Audio isn't easier because we don't have a clue whats important to measure. If you state otherwise I would like you to validate this statement by scientific proof that we cannot hear anything that we cannot measure. :cool::cool::cool:
 

PeterZui

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Measuring devices greatly (magnitudes) exceed hearing in all aspects (dynamic range, noise, distortion, amplitude, phase, timing). It says nothing about perception or personal taste.
There is and cannot be any correlation between taste and measurements. They are 2 things that are not linked in any way.

To understand what measurements MAY tell you one needs to take all measurements into account and understand what they actually mean, represent and why and how they were made. This differs from listening to music.

A stereo music signal is just 2 voltages varying over time with a certain relation between them. There is nothing not known in the electrical plane. There is a LOT unknown between the transducer and the mental 'image' that is created in human minds.

Honestly, do you ever have interest and a conversation with an audio engineer about his challenges ?
In these days a stereo music signal starts as a magnetic binary code on a HDD or other storage and still ends as a soundwave reaching your ears.
We think we know all about electrical signals because in every design we use Laplace and/or Fourier transformations to hop from time to frequency domains. This only works for linear systems unfortunately. If not linear it becomes a lot more difficult to measure, to replicate and to understand because all mathematics relations disappear as snow in the sun. How is it possible I can hear the difference between two ethernet cables ?? I'm wondering but from my perspective stating that we can measure everything we could possibly hear is quite arrogant...............
 

PeterZui

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Just FYI, you may not see it this way, but here that statement "trust your own ears and brain as the most important measuring system" is an aggressive, provocative statement. I get you have your intentions but you haven't engaged the discussion other than to state your viewpoint, which against the etiquette of ASR. Viewpoint + some sort of evidence (research publication, book, measurement) is what's expected.

Hi pozz, thx for the warning but it might be a little late. After all I think I made a lot of statements that were not likable here. Took the opportunity to stir things up and will move away again. I wish every one the best to find his or her's own truth, even it is believing there is an absolute one ! And whatever you do, enjoy the music (*) (*got this one from Hans Beekhuyzen)
 

Here2Learn

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I was an ISO 9000 series Senior Lead Auditor for 10 years or so. I can assure you that the person making a claim is always the one who is required to validate it.

Nonsense. When was the last time the marketing department validated anything?
 

Here2Learn

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Hi pozz, thx for the warning but it might be a little late. After all I think I made a lot of statements that were not likable here. Took the opportunity to stir things up and will move away again. I wish every one the best to find his or her's own truth, even it is believing there is an absolute one ! And whatever you do, enjoy the music (*) (*got this one from Hans Beekhuyzen)

Well, there's evidence we all hear subtly differently due to our pinna. Certainly some food for though in some old defence-sponsored research: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/600151.pdf
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Hi Sgt Earache, I read in your posts many references to blind tests and I was particularly wondering how much blind tests you have done yourself and who sponsored them. Looking forward for your feedback :)

Which assertions have I made that require blind testing? I haven't come here and made claims that I can hear the difference between cables or DACs or lossy/lossless files. The people making extraordinary claims of having super-powered hearing are the ones who need to prove something (even if only to themselves). I have done some tests (for instance several of the online tests comparing lossy/lossless as well as some "mostly for fun" tests with my system at home) and I have also read the results of quite a few varied blind tests that have been conducted by other groups (Harmon for instance). The results of tests conducted by publications and audio groups have pretty much all backed up the objectivist reasoning I've come to appreciate...
 

Blumlein 88

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Nonsense. When was the last time the marketing department validated anything?
Do you know what ISO 9000 is? Wombat didn't say he was a lead marketing author. In science and in quality control, and some legal matters it is up to the claimant to provide validation or documentation or proof.
 

Here2Learn

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Do you know what ISO 9000 is? Wombat didn't say he was a lead marketing author. In science and in quality control, and some legal matters it is up to the claimant to provide validation or documentation or proof.

Indeed I work in such an industry where it's often the norm. It was a tongue in cheek response!
 

Blumlein 88

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Well, there's evidence we all hear subtly differently due to our pinna. Certainly some food for though in some old defence-sponsored research: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/600151.pdf
Some more modern research fills in some details about that. I forget if it was this thread or another recently. They changed the shape of people's pinna testing directional acuity before and after. After changing the pinna shape directional acuity was terrible. The volunteers agreed to wear the inserts with changed shapes. Over a couple weeks time, the brain apparently recalibrated to the new shape and directional acuity was as good with the new shapes as without. The old research didn't investigate that.
 

Here2Learn

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Some more modern research fills in some details about that. I forget if it was this thread or another recently. They changed the shape of people's pinna testing directional acuity before and after. After changing the pinna shape directional acuity was terrible. The volunteers agreed to wear the inserts with changed shapes. Over a couple weeks time, the brain apparently recalibrated to the new shape and directional acuity was as good with the new shapes as without. The old research didn't investigate that.

True. By posting an old paper I was merely trying to show that the importance of phase and the individuality of our ears play a role in perception that's been long understood. The idea we all perceive sound the same is not an absolute, more of a ball park.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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The fact that we perceive things differently really doesn't matter. If in my mind the color blue is what you see in your mind as green, we still both point at the sky and say it's blue. When someone rings a bell, neither of us says "that's a dog barking." However we interpret what our senses take in, we still operate in the same world and relate via our senses to the same reality. Whatever those differing interpretations might be, we still operate under a set of human limitations. None of us see in the ultraviolet spectrum. None of us can follow scents like dogs. None of us can hear a 30000hz tone. Most of us can't hear a 17000hz tone.
 

Here2Learn

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The fact that we perceive things differently really doesn't matter. If in my mind the color blue is what you see in your mind as green, we still both point at the sky and say it's blue. When someone rings a bell, neither of us says "that's a dog barking." However we interpret what our senses take in, we still operate in the same world and relate via our senses to the same reality. Whatever those differing interpretations might be, we still operate under a set of human limitations. None of us see in the ultraviolet spectrum. None of us can follow scents like dogs. None of us can hear a 30000hz tone. Most of us can't hear a 17000hz tone.

Your assertion I find quite valid. But if I see the sky as green and you as blue, it may have some bearing on whether we like that colour or not, so our perceptive differences likely play a role in subjective appreciation.
 
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