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Measurable aspects of sound perception

audiophile

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exactly... now extend this to the individuals that have changed their cable or whatever controversial tweak and here 'more' and then decide it is definitely better and quickly run to Reddit and post their experiences. How credible are their findings ?
I am not sure we can use the word “credible” when discussing subjective impressions. Credible in what sense? That it should be true for everyone?

When one wants to really know and confirm findings more rigid testing is needed. Rarely to people do that and the fact they heard a change is enough for them. After all they read it everywhere on the internet searching for the next upgrade.
I agree that there are plenty of people who use positive reviews or perfect measurements or high price to convince themselves that the new piece of gear sounds good to them. People are lazy and like quick solutions. Not everyone has time and motivation to learn some critical listening skills. But there are many opposite examples when a well-reviewed component does not work as expected or when a cheaper component sounds better than the more expensive one.
 

Wombat

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Wombat

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You have a typo in your signature line.

Thanks. Verified and corrected.
Wink.gif
 
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Hipper

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I feel a bit uncomfortable about this thread.

I don't know exactly what has been going on but I was lured here by the title, 'Measurable aspects of sound perception', an excellent subject for this board and one I was hoping for far more insight then we've actually had.

Instead it seems, and I don't know the exact facts, that one Peter Zui was invited on this board to discuss the subject but it appears without being told the nature of this place. He has therefore been shot down on a number of subjective points he made. Now I'm not saying that some of the criticism wasn't justified but it seems to me rather rude to attack someone who is here by invitation. Was he not warned about the nature of this site.

Whilst I accept the tag 'Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously', the uninitiated may not see it that way.
 

solderdude

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nobody knows .... some even seem to think it is private messaging or so, but it is public.

Be sure to click on the 'view previous comments' to see the reason for the thread.
 

ViperScythe

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@PeterZui So you mean rather than believing the measurement of a device using a device that was made specifically to measure said device, we should listen to the website who told you to buy $1000 unobtanium cable?

Or we should abandon all review altogether because everyone listen to things differently and can't be measured?

Which one is your point?
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Nobody is asking for evidence that consists of guys from companies that sell audio gear claiming they do blind testing on their products and those tests have clearly shown the benefits of their products. Now, if Paul M were to post a video of some tests they did that included third party folks from perhaps some audio magazines, maybe a couple guys from other companies, maybe some invitees from various audio forums to take part in the tests then I'd be interested. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't going to do that though.

There are tests online that have been set up that way...tests to compare lossy vs lossless files, tests comparing cables and dacs, tests comparing speakers, etc. Those tests have mostly shown similar results - basically that the grandiose claims made by audiophiles as regards their golden ears are to a very large degree...bunk. What the published tests have shown, even with speakers, is that the correlation between $$$ and good sound is at best highly tenuous and that the correlation between stuff looking cool and sounding awesome is far far higher sighted than it is blind.
 
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FrantzM

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Hi

I didn't read most of the post in this thread. I was expecting more TBH. I tend to stop reading the second I see "Quantum Mechanics" in an Audiophile discussions. I know, from the intonation of those words, it is always a download slope toward manure.
And that is what happened here.
 
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pozz

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Why not? Let’s say there is a certain distortion in the sound that a trained listener can spot in a quick test. But someone, who is not trained what to listen for, may spend many days, weeks or even months until he can figure it out, because his brain will be wandering almost randomly consciously focusing on different aspects of the sound at any particular moment. I am not aware of any better explanation of this phenomena than limited bandwidth of conscious mind.
Interesting way to put it. The thing is to assign numbers to your experience to ensure its repeatability and comparison to that of others. That means setting up a strict procedure and documenting the (electrical and other) aspects of your performance. Otherwise:

"How tall are you?"​
"I dunno... pretty tall."​
"Taller than Brian over in New York?"​
"Probably. I'd know if I met him."​
"Look at that guy over there. Do you think you're taller than him?"​
"Umm... Can't say from where I'm standing."​
"I think I'm taller than him too."​
"Hey, you, walking over there! How tall are you?"​
"Seventeen fists!"​
"How tall is that? Whose fist? Hey, what's a fist?"​
"A fist is about three thumbs!"​
"Thumbs...?"​

Etc. and so on. You can replace all the important terms of this conversation with audio-related ones, like distortion, DACs, etc. The "I'd know if I met him" is roughly equivalent to "I'd know what it sounds like if I heard it". What's the point when you can just say "173cm" or "90dB SFDR"? And, oh boy, if you think the arguments on ASR are bad, read about the arguments which founded of the metric system.

For example, see this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mola-mola-tambaqui-measurements.10693/ or this one https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/msb-dacs-measurements.9112/. The criticisms directed at the articles are about the lack of description of the measurement conditions. It doesn't matter that one uses AP gear or that charts are published instead of single numbers. Both are misleading and even detrimental to helping understand performance. It's no wonder that some see measured data as useless overall, given how sloppily it's presented a lot of the time.

The other thing I'd like to state openly, and I'm not being coy, is that all perception is measurable. The question is simply what you're measuring, how accurate it is and how it's relatable to other kinds of measurements (such as, again, electrical measurements at the output of DACs and amps). It takes a lot of work to understand the relationship. It's like this: you go to doctor because something is wrong with your ears or hearing. If they can't see anything by looking into your ears, they'll conduct a hearing test, and then start on a diagnosis based on the frequency response of your hearing threshold (among other measurements).

I don't want to make this post longer than it already is, but I think if members are really interested in what can be measured when it comes to human perception then we should switch gears. It would be fun to actually discuss the work done in psychoacoustics/psychophysics as such.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Y'know, if I was a guy who owned a company that manufactured a high-end audio component - let's say for instance I make exotic interconnect cables costing hundreds of dollars each - and I had done real, methodologically-sound blind comparison testing that confirmed conclusively that my product really made a notable difference in SQ such that I could reliably identify it in such testing...well I'd be inviting anyone who wanted to try it themselves over to take the test! I'd be arranging tests for anyone who wanted to try it. It would pretty much become my primary method for generating sales...
 

audiophile

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Nobody is asking for evidence that consists of guys from companies that sell audio gear claiming they do blind testing on their products and those tests have clearly shown the benefits of their products.
Paul claimed hearing differences between USB cables. PS Audio does not make / sell USB cables, but he recommended some of those made by other companies.
Now, if Paul M were to post a video of some tests they did that included third party folks from perhaps some audio magazines, maybe a couple guys from other companies, maybe some invitees from various audio forums to take part in the tests then I'd be interested. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't going to do that though.
Actually their office in Boulder is open to everyone to visit and listen to their gear. Paul repeatedly invited everyone, including all the skeptics to come and hear cables or DAC differences first hand. They have visitors every day. I’d go if I was nearby.
I'd be inviting anyone who wanted to try it themselves over to take the test! I'd be arranging tests for anyone who wanted to try it. It would pretty much become my primary method for generating sales...
And this is exactly what PS Audio is doing.
 
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Sgt. Ear Ache

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are his set-ups available for examination and are the results of these tests published anywhere - and do we trust Paul to publish results if they don't benefit his company? Are they blind tests? I mean inviting people over to listen to stuff is nice, but if those people aren't free to go have a look behind the wall and examine how things are set up and to make sure the test is an actual, honest comparison it doesn't mean much. If it's "here's a system set up with cheap stuff, and now here's a system set up with our stuff...I think you can hear the difference..." well that isn't exactly what we're talking about.

Paul is an amiable bloke. He's a good salesman and seems like a nice guy. I don't believe for one single second that he can reliably hear differences between functioning usb cables in a blind test. I would need to see him do that in a test set up by another party...
 
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audiophile

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I don't want to make this post longer than it already is, but I think if members are really interested in what can be measured when it comes to human perception then we should switch gears. It would be fun to actually discuss the work done in psychoacoustics/psychophysics as such.
The bandwidth of conscious perception was measured by scientists in many papers published over the past few decades. And then the engineers at Genelec published an AES paper, linking that knowledge to their suggestions on how to improve listening tests. With only 29 downloads of that paper, it seems to me people are not that interested in such research.
 

audiophile

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I mean inviting people over to listen to stuff is nice, but if those people aren't free to go have a look behind the wall and examine how things are set up and to make sure the test is an actual, honest comparison it doesn't mean much.
There is no wall, their stuff is not easy to hide :)

Listening-room-1700x610.jpg
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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That's a very nice room. Which of those components is not a PS Audio product? And what is the methodology for their blind testing? And where are the results of the tests published?
 
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pozz

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The bandwidth of conscious perception was measured by scientists in many papers published over the past few decades. And then the engineers at Genelec published an AES paper, linking that knowledge to their suggestions on how to improve listening tests. With only 29 downloads of that paper, it seems to me people are not that interested in such research.
Ah, that's what you meant. There's also this talk by Lund where he discusses his findings at the end: (2018) Thomas Lund - Immersive Production & Translation to In-Room or Binaural Delivery
 

audiophile

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Ah, that's what you meant. There's also this talk by Lund
Thanks, haven't seen that video before but watched another presentation by Lund on the same topic. Interested to see further research in that direction.
 
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