Behringer A800 Stereo Amplifier Review

[A800]

I like it !

I also did.
But not anymore...

 

[sergeauckland]

Hi.
I had to sign up to tell you that you want to stay away from the Behringer U-Phoria.
Although the measurements are somewhat good it has its "issues".

First of all the max. output level is very low much lower than other devices.
Second it will compress the output signal.
Third the output will be muddy and lifeless all over, highs, mids, lows you name it.

If you compare it to the inbuilt soundcard of a 370 EUR HP laptop (Realtek ALC 3227) the laptop soundcard will have at least 3 times the clarity, punch, liveliness, ... at the same output level.
Sad but true.

I have been shocked when I compared the 2 against each other.
The difference is HUGE.
Better stay away.

EDIT:
The Behringer A800 is nothing short of amazing for the price.

May I take issue with what you wrote?

Firstly, although the output level my be lower than other devices, it's still quite sufficient to drive most power amps fully.

Secondly, what compression does the device carry out? It may clip, but there's no compression taking place as that involves a reduction in gain, and there's no such mechanism in those devices.

Thirdly, your assertion about clarity, punch and liveliness are subjective views which you don't back up with any evidence. As to the 3 times statement, how was that calibrated and measured, or was it just an arm-waving assertion without any corroboration. Why 3x, why not 2.58x or 3.14x?

S

 

[restorer-john]

We need to decide this soon before I measure a bunch of amplifiers with this load. It is appealing to have the same load as Stereophile so measurements can be compared. But I am open to fixing issues with it and having our own as I will likely review a lot more amps than Stereophile will ever do.

I agree. The Stereophile load linked above by @LTig is more representative in the HF in my opinion. It also appears this is the load they are using for ALL amplifier reviews. It's just adding a cap and a resistor.

 

[pma]

Circuit

simulation

measurement of impedance

P.S.: resistances of coils already added to circuit resistors in the simulation.

 

[restorer-john]

This is posted a while back, there's three bookshelf speakers.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dphone-amplifier-drive.2327/page-2#post-76501

 

[restorer-john]

I suggest we tweak the values to use standard off-the-shelf components available everywhere, knock up a PCB (or just PTP) and make a standard ASR simulated speaker load for low powers.

The higher dissipation components can be upgraded to allow testing at medium power if people want.

 

[pma]

I suggest we tweak the values to use standard off-the-shelf components available everywhere, knock up a PCB (or just PTP) and make a standard ASR simulated speaker load for low powers.

The higher dissipation components can be upgraded to allow testing at medium powers if people want.

Easy to build with standard components and usable for those 5W measurements. And even such simple load reveals issues
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ax-396-integrated-amplifier.10410/post-290083

 

[IowAudio]

I offered my Behringer A800 for my own curiosity and to help other looking about this amplifier. The previous A500 seemed popular amongst many other budget audiophiles and was pretty well documented. The A800 has been out for some time now with people asking about it and no answers so I figured I could part with mine for a few weeks to get some answers for us all. Glad Amir provides this service to the audio community. Thank you.

 

[A800]

May I take issue with what you wrote?

Firstly, although the output level my be lower than other devices, it's still quite sufficient to drive most power amps fully.

Secondly, what compression does the device carry out? It may clip, but there's no compression taking place as that involves a reduction in gain, and there's no such mechanism in those devices.

Thirdly, your assertion about clarity, punch and liveliness are subjective views which you don't back up with any evidence. As to the 3 times statement, how was that calibrated and measured, or was it just an arm-waving assertion without any corroboration. Why 3x, why not 2.58x or 3.14x?

S

Sure.
Basically I already wrote everything there is to it.
But I can repeat myself.

There is some compression going on all the time regardless of output level.
But you can easily verify this for yourself.
Just use a good amp, good speakers, a level meter and a ordinary soundcard for comparison.

To clarify I used a Behringer A800 and self-built PA speakers which punched me at least 3 times (estimated) harder and faster/more defined/controlled in the chest at the same output level using a cheap onboard soundchip.
Reducing the volume the onboard soundchip will still kick you nicely in the chest while the Behringer U-Phoria will have no impact whatsover at the same volume level.
The Behringer U-Phoria felt and sounded muddy and uncontrolled throughout the complete frequency range in comparison.

The volume level is there just not the punch/clarity/control.
That's basically all there is to it.

Also there is no need to measure it because the difference is so huge even a 3yr old kid will notice it immediately.
Apart from that I have no idea how one could measure circuit internal compression.

The Behringer U-Phoria is a good example of good measurements but poor performance.
There are things that are hard to measure.
A few nice curves don't tell you everything there is to it.

 

[A800]

I offered my Behringer A800 for my own curiosity and to help other looking about this amplifier. The previous A500 seemed popular amongst many other budget audiophiles and was pretty well documented. The A800 has been out for some time now with people asking about it and no answers so I figured I could part with mine for a few weeks to get some answers for us all. Glad Amir provides this service to the audio community. Thank you.

Thank you very much.
Both of you.

 

[sergeauckland]

Sure.
Basically I already wrote everything there is to it.
But I can repeat myself.

There is some compression going on all the time regardless of output level.
But you can easily verify this for yourself.
Just use a good amp, good speakers, a level meter and a ordinary soundcard for comparison.

To clarify I used a Behringer A800 and self-built PA speakers which punched me at least 3 times (estimated) harder and faster/more defined/controlled in the chest at the same output level using a cheap onboard soundchip.
Reducing the volume the onboard soundchip will still kick you nicely in the chest while the Behringer U-Phoria will have no impact whatsover at the same volume level.
The Behringer U-Phoria felt and sounded muddy and uncontrolled throughout the complete frequency range in comparison.

The volume level is there just not the punch/clarity/control.
That's basically all there is to it.

Also there is no need to measure it because the difference is so huge even a 3yr old kid will notice it immediately.
Apart from that I have no idea how one could measure circuit internal compression.

The Behringer U-Phoria is a good example of good measurements but poor performance.
There are things that are hard to measure.
A few nice curves don't tell you everything there is to it.

What compression? There is none in a DAC or ADC unless there's some DSP doing it, and there isn't in the Behringer units.

All you're doing is giving us opinions without any corroborating evidence, and that's not what this forum is about. Please either provide such evidence or keep your opinions to yourself as they're of no interest to me, and I suspect, to very few around here.

Graphs do tell you all you need to know. You just have to understand what they're telling you.

S

 

[A800]

What compression? There is none in a DAC or ADC unless there's some DSP doing it, and there isn't in the Behringer units.

All you're doing is giving us opinions without any corroborating evidence, and that's not what this forum is about. Please either provide such evidence or keep your opinions to yourself as they're of no interest to me, and I suspect, to very few around here.

Graphs do tell you all you need to know. You just have to understand what they're telling you.

S

There is some compression going on anyway.
I can hear and feel it.

I doubt that.
Also I didn't find any hint of muddy sound in the graph(s).

 

[LTig]

Then you should use the same load as stereophile (see here). If one looks sharp one can see that this circuit contains real world components:

All inductors have an additional series resistor (not shown as an internal resistance though)

• Inductor 0.5 mH with 0.7 Ohm resistor
• Inductor 0.3 mH with 0.5 Ohm resistor
• Inductor 1 mH with 0.9 Ohm resistor
• Inductor 10 mH with 0.6 Ohm resistor

To assemble this load you have to get inductors with said inductance and same or lower internal resistance. Any missing internal resistance can be added easily with a matching additional external resistor.

I don't know whether Visaton sells to the US but here is the link to their crossover parts. For the 10 mH inductor refer to the FC series. FOr the smaller ones the core less SP series should suffice. You may need to buy a larger inductor and remove a few windings to reach the proper value.

Here is my simulation of the circuit, using the same scales as Stereophile. It's quite close but not identical:

And here with a 2nd order cross over with 2.5 kHz crossover frequency, calculated for 8 Ohm resistive load. Looks quite wild (I'm glad I have active speakers where the amps don't have to handle such loads):

 

[Blumlein 88]

I doubt that.
Also I didn't find any hint of muddy sound in the graph(s).

First off, compression would definitely show up like added distortion. Even a little compression. Secondly, compression would give you the subjective feeling of more kick, not less. So your description of the sound subjectively doesn't fit with compression.

You said you were using the same volume, but were you using the same levels. The Uphoria gear has low output levels, even less than some sound cards. What you describe could be the result of more output voltage of one source vs another. Most often descriptions like yours are the result of frequency response and level differences.

Quoting you:

"Also there is no need to measure it because the difference is so huge even a 3yr old kid will notice it immediately.
Apart from that I have no idea how one could measure circuit internal compression."

The first sentence if true would be the result of some difference so large it would be trivial to measure. The second sentence indicates an idea which isn't true. Easy to measure compression. One way is to put in tones at different levels. Check peak output to see if it lines up or if higher volumes have lower than expected peaks. But even a little compression would push measured distortion well up. You wouldn't get acceptable distortion values if compression were part and parcel of the Uphoria.

So if there is such a large difference in the sound you are hearing it probably isn't compression, and it would be measurable. You just have to investigate the measurements and see what is going on.

 

[A800]

First off, compression would definitely show up like added distortion. Even a little compression. Secondly, compression would give you the subjective feeling of more kick, not less. So your description of the sound subjectively doesn't fit with compression.

You said you were using the same volume, but were you using the same levels. The Uphoria gear has low output levels, even less than some sound cards. What you describe could be the result of more output voltage of one source vs another. Most often descriptions like yours are the result of frequency response and level differences.

Quoting you:

"Also there is no need to measure it because the difference is so huge even a 3yr old kid will notice it immediately.
Apart from that I have no idea how one could measure circuit internal compression."

The first sentence if true would be the result of some difference so large it would be trivial to measure. The second sentence indicates an idea which isn't true. Easy to measure compression. One way is to put in tones at different levels. Check peak output to see if it lines up or if higher volumes have lower than expected peaks. But even a little compression would push measured distortion well up. You wouldn't get acceptable distortion values if compression were part and parcel of the Uphoria.

So if there is such a large difference in the sound you are hearing it probably isn't compression, and it would be measurable. You just have to investigate the measurements and see what is going on.

Yes.
Same levels.
db-Meter.

I am also wondering about this.
I will investigate further tomorrow.

 

[amirm]

Then you should use the same load as stereophile (see here). If one looks sharp one can see that this circuit contains real world components:

So does mine! I have built a real circuit, not a computer model. So all the ESR is already in the circuit. Also, there is no reason to have series resistors in the circuit since they just sum together. If you do that, then it winds up being very similar to Doug Self one, sans the low pass filter he added at the end.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes.
Same levels.
db-Meter.

I am also wondering about this.
I will investigate further tomorrow.

If you were using a sound level meter, you have to be careful. A better way is to measure voltage output of the amplifier with a test signal say a 1 khz tone. A sound level meter is better than nothing, but using steady tones with small position differences you'll get different numbers, enough different to matter.

 

[Rja4000]

I also did.
But not anymore...

Oh. I thought you were kidding.
But you're speaking seriously?
About the interface then? I don't know this one.

 

[LTig]

Then you should use the same load as stereophile (see here). If one looks sharp one can see that this circuit contains real world components:

So does mine! I have built a real circuit, not a computer model. So all the ESR is already in the circuit.

Of curse you made a realworld circuit, hence the difference to the plot in Doug Selfs book.

Also, there is no reason to have series resistors in the circuit since they just sum together. If you do that, then it winds up being very similar to Doug Self one, sans the low pass filter he added at the end.

Would you mind telling the exact values of all components which differ from the posted circuit? Especially the resistance of the inductors. I'd like to simulate your real world circuit. May take a few days though until I'm able to do so.

 

[restorer-john]

So does mine! I have built a real circuit, not a computer model. So all the ESR is already in the circuit. Also, there is no reason to have series resistors in the circuit since they just sum together. If you do that, then it winds up being very similar to Doug Self one, sans the low pass filter he added at the end.

Yours will be perfectly fine once you add the RC to pull the rising HF impedance down. Otherwise it's just not representative of typical speakers.