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Best bang for the buck subwoofer according to ASR

Sal1950

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617

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Dayton Cheesewoofer + MiniDSP should be a good-value option, too.

Nice work on the spreadsheet. A few comments:
  1. Vd / $ isn't that crude. It's where CotIB starts, and DSP makes many other specs less important.
  2. Isn't Vd usually stated with 1-way Xmax? IOW, UM18 should be 2.6L, not 5.3.
  3. What are the LP drivers?
  4. Hsu 10" probably has a typo on Sd. 349 looks a lot more likely than 394, so ~13% error. Still great value at $40!
  5. Please format the columns so the numbers align. :)
2. I don't know if it is, but it's not really material since they all use the same metric.
3. The LP woofers are Dayton's Low Profile subwoofers, which can be put in really shallow boxes, under couches, in wall cavities etc.
4. 394 is the listed Sd, which I agree is high but that's what the spec say
5. You do it!

I wouldn't hesitate to get one of the dayton subs, the only issue with them is that they tend to call for bigger boxes. A sealed SDX 10 can be put in a tiny box.
 

HammerSandwich

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Since I'm leaning DIY, how can I make sure I get the right enclosure for my sub?
I don't have time for much detail, but sim. VituixCAD is probably overkill, but it's a free, full-service CAD for speakers. You'd need only the enclosure tool. WinISD would be more accessible, and there are online tools, such as Speakerboxlite.

As someone mentioned before, sealed boxes are pretty forgiving of modest size variations, anyhow.

I think I like passive amps so I can change them out when I need to (But then which amp would go well with this? and Could I use this amp to power both subs?)
Stereo Behringer or Crown with integrated DSP would be a solid, affordable choice here.

Anyone know how they got the Cheesewoofer nick?
@RayDunzl coined that one, I think. The prices imply cheesiness, but the performance does not.
 
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Toroid

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I don't have time for much detail, but sim. VituixCAD is probably overkill, but it's a free, full-service CAD for speakers. You'd need only the enclosure tool. WinISD would be more accessible, and there are online tools, such as Speakerboxlite.

As someone mentioned before, sealed boxes are pretty forgiving of modest size variations, anyhow.


Stereo Behringer or Crown with integrated DSP would be a solid, affordable choice here.


@RayDunzl coined that one, I think. The prices imply cheesiness, but the performance does not.


I have an old Behringer EP2500 laying around. I assume that would work to power basically any pair of subs? But then I'd need to get the DSP stuff (mini DSP, REW and mic, correct?)
 

617

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Highly recommend WinISD for simulation. Go to Loudspeakerdatabase.com for winisd files for the drivers.
 
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Toroid

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While the cheese woofer stuff looks like a good value, I think I want a step up from that.

I've narrowed this down to the SVS SB-NSD 12 (x2) $400 each ($800 total)
or
DIY of a 12" Dayton reference series (x2):
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ies-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7092 ($262 each or $520 total)
or
DIY the Peerless by Tymphany 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer ($146 each or $300 total, but still don't have the cabinets - need a flat pack)
or
DIY the CSS SDX10 XBL2 Subwoofer x2 ($220 each or $440 total, but still need to find a cabinet - need a kit/flat pack)


I think I've ruled out 15's due to the size of them - just too big for the physical space I think.


What would you guys go with from what I've narrowed them down to? The CSS looks awfully tempting if I can get a clean 20hz with the 10 incher - but still need the box. I like the small footprint this would allow, as well)
 

Biblob

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While the cheese woofer stuff looks like a good value, I think I want a step up from tha
I've narrowed this down to the SVS SB-NSD 12 (x2) $400 each ($800 total)
or
DIY of a 12" Dayton reference series (x2):
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ies-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7092 ($262 each or $520 total)
or
DIY the Peerless by Tymphany 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer ($146 each or $300 total, but still don't have the cabinets - need a flat pack)
or
DIY the CSS SDX10 XBL2 Subwoofer x2 ($220 each or $440 total, but still need to find a cabinet - need a kit/flat pack)


I think I've ruled out 15's due to the size of them - just too big for the physical space I think.


What would you guys go with from what I've narrowed them down to? The CSS looks awfully tempting if I can get a clean 20hz with the 10 incher - but still need the box. I like the small footprint this would allow, as well)
On the website of CSS they also sell flatpacks for the subs.
Flat pack + subs

You can also build them yourself. I will use a 18L cabinet and use a Linkwitz Transform, to simulate a bigger box. 24 L seems the optimum size.
 

bravomail

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I followed wirecutter advice some time ago and got Monoprice 12" - it si between 100 and 200 dollars.
 

HammerSandwich

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What would you guys go with from what I've narrowed them down to? The CSS looks awfully tempting if I can get a clean 20hz with the 10 incher - but still need the box. I like the small footprint this would allow, as well)
The SDX10 & RSS315 move the same amount of air, almost exactly. You'll get the same max SPL across the band. Expect ~100dB per sub at 25Hz in half space, so add whatever room gain applies. The 12" needs a little more box volume but about 1dB less wattage. Which has lower distortion? Beats me.

RSS265s & 830452 give 2-3dB less at 25Hz & Xmax. Both will be okay in 1cuft, but a little more box volume won't hurt at all. (It actually reduces amplifier power needed for a given SPL, since there's less air pressure to fight inside the box. More below.)

All candidates will work fine with 200W from 20-100Hz, at least if you want flattish response. Below ~40Hz, Xmax sets the limit more than the amp. Above that point, clipping limits max SPL, but you should get >105dB per sub by then. FWIW, the similarly priced Ultimax 10" kit is much less efficient.

So, that's most of the info to make your own decision.

@Arnandsway linked CSS's 1cuft kit at $360. The driver frame is shown as 10.81". Denovo's 1.25cuft box, specced at 10.8" should work with a little sandpaper. Does CSS charge shipping? P-E won't here...

You could try getting flat packs straight from DIYsoundgroup.com (aka Denovo). Stock looks low, but prices beat P-E's, even after shipping. If this works out, $112 RSS265HF drivers would make a nifty $210ish "kit."

Personally, I see the best values as a pair of Dayton 12s at $525 as well as 3x Dayton RSS 10" kits for $657. That three-pack appeals to my inner cheapskate more than a pair of SDX10s at the same price.

You can also build them yourself. I will use a 18L cabinet and use a Linkwitz Transform, to simulate a bigger box. 24 L seems the optimum size.

Simmed in VituixCAD at 25Hz & Xmax/100dB:
  • 18L, Qtc 0.8, 330W
  • 29L, Qtc 0.707, 185W
  • 51L, Qtc 0.6, 80W
  • >500L (infinite baffle), Qtc 0.44, 20W
So, how do you define optimum size? With DSP, you don't need the box to define FR, and a larger box is more efficient. Obviously, the box needs to fit the room unless you build an IB, but bigger will help a sub's performance.
 
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Toroid

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Don't mean to muddy up the thread, (but since it's mine, I will :p) what do you all think about open baffle subs? what about DIY servo subs? I assume those would be a lot more $, but is the benefit worth it usually?
 
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jhaider

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You are correct, the sub amp gives out.....SVS uses very strict limiters. The SB12 and PB12 NSD are the lowest output subs ever tested on data-bass in the mid and upper bass.

What about Emotiva?

SVS is also one of the smallest subs data-bass has tested. Objectively speaking, >105dB ground plane from 25Hz to the upper limit of the measurement, and flat frequency response beyond 200Hz (important for the lowpass filter to work correctly) add up to subwoofer capable of sounding excellent when well calibrated, and offers higher bass SPL potential than most audiophile full range statement speakers.

Is the JBL you mentioned even better? Maybe; no experience with it.

Numbers-driven people often significantly overestimate the bass headroom they use. My epiphany came as a result of reviewing Tannoy's Revolution XT 8F, a medium sized vented tower with an 8" woofer and 8" coax with a 2.5way crossover. Bass extension goes down to the high 20s, and the woofer surrounds do not look like they would support very large excursion. Yet with response of an LCR set at the listening position corrected below 300Hz (12' distance in a 14.5' W x 22.5'D x 9.5'H room), I never felt output was lacking.

It it was me, I'd probably go Peerless XLS 10 with passive radiator....

My first DIY speaker project was a Peerless XLS12 with passive radiator and Dayton 240W (plate amp in a box that was I think a 14" cube. The box volume and PR mass were from plans published on Peerless' website. I had no grasp of fine woodworking then (or now), and did not have the liquidity to make up for that deficiency then. So it was an ugly box. In a nice box I think it would be a competitive subwoofer today at that size. I would expect slightly lower output than the SVS sub above. The drive unit is very similar but the box is smaller and amp power less.

I'm building some speakers which will require subs. I may just use my existing SDX10 in sealed enclosures, but I was also playing with the idea of making a few subs.

Unless you already have another place for your current subs or the output is somehow inadequate, I would reuse the drivers.

The danger of seeking newer, shinier DIY subs is a lot of good woofers end up as a sunk cost in storage. They are often unresellable because you long ago threw out the packaging, and packaging a large drive unit to withstand shipping is either expensive or very time consuming.

I made a spreadsheet to get an idea of the best values in subs right now from parts express, basically the ratio of swept volume to price. This ia pretty crude way of assessing subwoofers, but gives some idea of output capabilities:

I did not see Dayton RSS265HF on that list. As @HammerSandwhich notes, it is currently on sale. I recently bought two in 4Ω, albeit not strictly based on known or expected performance. They were the only current drivers with shorting rings I could find that would drop right into Velodyne cabinets I wanted to reuse.

A speaker engineer I regard highly (and unassociated with any of the companies named in this post) measured the 18" Dayton Reference on a Klippel Distortion Analyzer. He told me their BL linearity measured as good as he has seen on an overhung coil woofer, though not as good as the best underhung coil woofers.
 
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bigx5murf

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I'm building some speakers which will require subs. I may just use my existing SDX10 in sealed enclosures, but I was also playing with the idea of making a few subs.

Buying subs is great but inexpensive subs do not have the ability to use dsp to filter them so you can integrate them really well. This is a priority for me, so I was considering making a few inexpensive subs controlled by a minidsp and plate amps, or maybe a pro amp with dsp built in.

I made a spreadsheet to get an idea of the best values in subs right now from parts express, basically the ratio of swept volume to price. This ia pretty crude way of assessing subwoofers, but gives some idea of output capabilities:

View attachment 42434
(VDP = xmax * cone area)

As you can see, increasing diameter gives you a ton more output capability - 10" subs which can play loud and deep tend to be a poor value. As a result, despite being expensive, the dayton ultimax 18 has the most output per dollar simply due to the huge cone and 2.2 cm xmax.

It also shows that the buyout Hsu subs are all a great value - I'd go for the 80 dollar drivers. The large dayton classic drivers (15 and 18) also provide a lot of output but will need big boxes.

Another worth considering, even though it's a car sub, are the Rockville CEA compliant line. They've all got huge double stacked magnets, and 26mm Xmax. They're also all dirt cheap.
 

Head_Unit

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I have been rummaging around to get my brother an inexpensive sub. The king was a 12" Monoprice for $85 (!!), he can buy another half dozen and string them across the entire front if he wants. I was surprised their flat packs aren't so cheap. Once you add in the price of an amp, I don't know that you save so very much any more DIY.

I started on a career as a loudspeaker engineer precisely so I could learn to build cool stuff without much money. The advent of cheap Asian manufacturing and affordable simulation tool has changed the DIY world. My admittedly non-expert perception of that space is don't DIY to try and save money on the inexpensive end; do it to make something unique and maybe at the pricier end you can save. And if you ENJOY taking the time and trouble to make something, cool! I will further note that subwoofers exemplify art layered on science: formulas alone doth not good woofing make. The reason folks like SVS and Rhythmik and JL and HSU etc dominate over huger speaker companies lies in their particular expertise in their sub-domain.

I also *think* (could be wrong) that if you want compact subs you should just buy them. The DIY advantage seems to be making something larger than commercially feasible. And finally yes, there is no substitute for cubic inches (of displacement), physics so dictates. That doesn't mean a great 12" might not equal or even a exceed a cheap 18" but it means you're not going to recreate space shuttle launches with a 10" in a little box, especially if sealed.

I do agree sealed is much simpler. And you can stuff heavily to reduce the cabinet size a chunk, see Vance Dickason's excellent book https://www.parts-express.com/loudspeaker-design-cookbook-7th-edition-book--500-035. Ported gains you more output with lower distortion around the tuning frequency, and can sound really nice if "undertuned" to give a slow rolloff instead of the "maximally flat" nonsense that came about accidentally because Dick Small picked -3 dB as a convenient mathematical point.
 

daftcombo

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About the JBL LSR310S associated with a pair of 305MK2, how does the crossover included in the sub work?
Just add both driver outputs? High shelf on the sub?
High shelf on the sub plus low shelf on the monitors?
 

DimeGirlTX

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I'll venture a reply:
Your budget target, "cheap" is not a concrete notion. A number would have better. It wasn't provided, I'll choose one: $1000
ASR Philosophy is based on measurements. That begs the question: What are the measurements relevant to subwoofer performance? So far ASR through its leader Amir is pondering/working about/toward acquiring a speaker measurement system. We are not there yet. We know however that this is a project.

One can speculate though, I'll surmise that frequency response and THD at various frequencies, are very important. I could also add maximum output at various frequencies.
Bass performance however is a function of many variables. Among those and listed in no particular order:
Size of the room
Material the room is made of
How many openings in the room..
How "leaky" in the bass the room is
Actual bass absorption of the room with furniture, décorations and what make a room .... a room ...
The capabilities of the main speakers in the bass.
etc .. because there is more.

I cannot fathom optimum bass performance without multiple subwoofers, measurements, EQuing and DSP. It simply cannot. One may get lucky: Every week someone wins at least $100, 000 in some lottery, legal or otherwise. Every week. The odds of such remain infinitesimal, nonetheless. The same could be said of getting optimum bass in most people in a room without subwoofers (emphasis on plural), DSP and measuring.

One of the best ressource for bass I know is Data-bass.com. This website is dedicated to subwoofers and their measurements. I defer to the seriously knowledgeable people on this forum to read on their testing procedures and let us know if their method and protocol are sound (pun intended :D) enough to pass the ASR muster or scientific validity. I tend to think that they are very good, that is an opinion based on the little I think I understand about bass measurements. Click here for references to their method.

I am in favor of sealed over ported for music reproduction. I would like to open a thread on the matter but along the years, I have subjectively preferred sealed to ported ... although the speakers and subwoofers what I am using at the moment in my HT, are all ported .. Talk about contradicting oneself :D Be as it may. I would suggest the following based on my previous budget of $1000 and making sure to go over it, since this my post :cool: and your money:p ... :D:

miniDSP 2 x 4 HD ..... $200
REW ( A fwonderful software) .................................$ 0.00 (Would be nice to donate ...)
miniDSP UMik1 or equivalent ......$100
Based on Databass measurements: a pair (2) of SVS SB12-ND for $800 .
Total ..............................................................................................................................................$ 1100

Those SVS go low very low , being capable in half space to produce 91 dB at 20 Hz .. In a medium room , a pair of those subs may produce higher output at 20 Hz.. How much? , I can't tell but I wouldn't be surprised. The notion of "room gain" is another debate but a sub in a room may activate some room modes that work in favor of producing large output at some frequencies , the corollary is that same room/sub combination may produce close to 0 dB at other locations of said room, this location could be the main listening position ..

I cannot cease stressing that you need to measure. You can then, finish it off with some subjective tweaking. The way low bass work in a room makes equalizing a good solution. Under 200 Hz is what is called as steady state solution , in layman term you can equalize with a good rate of success, keeping in mind that cuts are always preferred to boost when equalizing.

Please Read , re-read several times and research Blumlein post in this thread.
You better be ready to read, learn, despair, ask questions ... It will take time. You will be rewarded.
I intended that post to be short .. I didn't succeed .. :(


What do you think of Unity Audio: The Avalanche Sub Woofers? (since we have blasted through the original price range:)
 

FrantzM

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What do you think of Unity Audio: The Avalanche Sub Woofers? (since we have blasted through the original price range:)

I don't know this unit at all. Reading the specs , I am not impressed. Their use of discrete A/B amplifers is not a good omen. It may strike the fancy of audiophiles but the reality is that a Class D amp would have been a better choice, IMHO. Cost is high at almost $3000

At that price you could get 2 Rythmik L22 ( 2 x 12 inches drivers) for a total of $1800 + A Ryhtmik L12 (one 12" driver) for $550, Call @mitchco and order his speaker optimization services. You use your PC or whatever Mitch advises for hardware (miniDSP 2 x4 HD?) ... I don't know his price but I believe this will stay within the reasonable .. Total could be around $3000 , the price of the Avalanche, for light years better performance that what a single woofer be it the Avalanche or anything else can offer.

I know Mitchco only from fora posts, his e-book and a few PM exchanges. Few can dare challenge his knowledge on speakers optimization. IMHO of of the best bet if it comes to spend $3000...
 

Icboschert

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Just bought two ported flat packs from diysoundgroup.com and two 12'' RSS315HF-4 drivers. F3 should be around 20hz without room gain. All in just under $600. Going to buy a used iNuke or Crown amp and should stay under $1,000 total for two great performing subs. Thinking I'll do a build thread in DIY section once the packages arrive.
 

Bear123

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While the cheese woofer stuff looks like a good value, I think I want a step up from that.

I've narrowed this down to the SVS SB-NSD 12 (x2) $400 each ($800 total)
or
DIY of a 12" Dayton reference series (x2):
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ies-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7092 ($262 each or $520 total)
or
DIY the Peerless by Tymphany 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer ($146 each or $300 total, but still don't have the cabinets - need a flat pack)
or
DIY the CSS SDX10 XBL2 Subwoofer x2 ($220 each or $440 total, but still need to find a cabinet - need a kit/flat pack)


I think I've ruled out 15's due to the size of them - just too big for the physical space I think.


What would you guys go with from what I've narrowed them down to? The CSS looks awfully tempting if I can get a clean 20hz with the 10 incher - but still need the box. I like the small footprint this would allow, as well)

I think it would be a huge waste of money to get 2 SVS SB-12 NSD for $800 when the JBL550P is on sale for $189, or $378 for a pair, especially since the JBL is likely equivalent or, more likely, a better sub.
 
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