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Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

North_Sky

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This is not marketed as an audiophile receiver ... the Denon 3500.
If it was they must have been confused, or else they are in the receivers market business with loads of features.

Thanks for testing this - looks like just another case of 'audiophile' marketing nonsense then.
 

Gedeon

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@amirm ... Could it be possible to measure the crosstalk in the pre-outs using analog pure direct input at 1volt ? Or even with some EQ active ? Just to check if crosstalk issues come from the DAC, pre-amp, or the power amp section.

I think it could help us to have a better idea of how "pure/untreated" is the signal if we decide to feed this kind of machines with external analog DACs/Sources. I personally have a Marantz SR6012 using and old, but reliabe, Parasound HC855 five channels PA.

I wonder if it could worth to add an external DAC instead using the AVR internal DLNA renderer, obviously, disabling AVR Room EQ features. Or maybe keeping those enabled.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Carnajo

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So a noob question I guess. How do you reduce the output voltage of the pre-outs? Just turn down the volume or something else? And would that mean that at full volume the pre-outs send line-level voltage?
 

bobbooo

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Thank you for testing this. However my conjecture was that “pure direct” mode improves the amp’s, not the DAC’s performance on this machine (much better sound in pure direct through the outboard ChordQutest compared to the onboard DAC. No difference heard in “auto” mode). If my experience is tracking the objective reality, the only way it can be happening is if amplifier’s 84 SINAD improves substantially in the pure direct mode.

You have previously shown that it was the case for Yamaha:



(although in case of Yamaha is was due to the analogue signal being digitized unless played in the “pure direct“ mode, while here it is not the case, so I agree that it is not clear how can Denon‘s amps be substantially better in “pure direct” mode).

Ah I only just realised that comparison of the modes amir posted was for the DAC stage. I'd also be interested in seeing a comparison of the modes for the amp output.
 

bobbooo

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This is not marketed as an audiophile receiver ... the Denon 3500.
If it was they must have been confused, or else they are in the receivers market business with loads of features.

From the 3500 manual:

"Pure Direct playback

This mode is for playback with higher sound quality than in Direct playback mode.

This mode turns off the main unit display and analog video circuit. Doing so suppresses noise sources that affect sound quality."

This is an obvious appeal to audiophiles. If it offers no audible benefit, then it's snake-oil marketing.
 

Vovgan

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Pure Direct playback ... If it offers no audible benefit, then it's snake-oil marketing.

Not necessarily. I have one theory why Amir’s tests showed no difference between auto, stereo and pure direct: because Audyssey curve was not preloaded into his receiver. In my experience and in my room Audyssey makes music sound worse, especially if I don’t use a dedicated app to set a cutoff frequency for correction. It by definition makes measurements objectively worse since it deliberately introduces changes to the signal.

It was 2 years ago when I owned Denon x3400 so my memory of how different it was in stereo vs. pure direct may be failing me, but one thing I remember for sure: when I switched from x3400 to x4500 the noise in “pure direct” became inaudible: whereas I could hear some slight hissing on x3400 when the volume was high and the music was supposed to be dead silent, the same moments were dead silent on x4500.

Dear owners of Denon 4400/4500/6400/6500 living in the US: please consider offering Amir to test your gear! Would be great to see how much better these machines objectively are. I am willing to reimburse 50% of the shipping cost.
 
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peng

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Gents, as I mentioned before, I am almost certain, based on the block diagram (someone posted it in #125 already) that in Pure Direct mode the switcher NJU72750 would direct the analog input signal to the preamp vol control IC directly. That means the analog input signal would bypass the AK5358 Analog to digital converter. Every time an analog signal get digitized first and them converted back analog is something many audiophiles don't want to see.

If I understand right, @amirm did not engage pure direct when he measured the preout performance but he said in Stereo the analog input did not get digitize, but I would beg the difference, again just going by that block diagram in post#125 and @maty 's post#148, see the part in bold super hug font size.

To me there is a chance if Amir had engage pure direct, and ECO off (this may not likely matter), the preout output might have been a touch cleaner at 2 V.
 

peng

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Hello @amirm , I know you are super busy and have been doing a lot for us who crave for reviews and measurements but if you still have the AVR-X3500H, could you please please measure the pre out again at 2 V, with Pure Direct engaged and disable ECO mode? I understand your point about not seeing signs of the analog signal being digitize in Stereo, but if you look at the evidence (may be only circumstantial) provided in post#125 and #148, it does look like it gets digitized unless the switchers NJU72750 were switched in the right place.

It would make sense that requires the unit be set to pure direct, otherwise Audyssey could still be engaged, implying that in Stereo the switcher will direct the analog input signal to the ADC because in Stereo, Audyssey can be engaged.
 
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bobbooo

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Not necessarily. I have one theory why Amir’s tests showed no difference between auto, stereo and pure direct: because Audyssey curve was not preloaded into his receiver. In my experience and in my room Audyssey makes music sound worse, especially if I don’t use a dedicated app to set a cutoff frequency for correction. It by definition makes measurements objectively worse since it deliberately introduces changes to the signal.

It was 2 years ago when I owned Denon x3400 so my memory of how different it was in stereo vs. pure direct may be failing me, but one thing I remember for sure: when I switched from x3400 to x4500 the noise level was much lower in “pure direct”: whereas I could hear some slight hissing on 3400 when the music was supposed to be dead silent, it was dead silent on x4500.

Dear owners of Denon 4400/4500/6400/6500 living in the US: please consider offering Amir to test your gear! Would be great to see how much better these machines objectively are. I am willing to reimburse you 50% of the shipping cost.

Audyssey is a distinct feature that does not necessarily have to be engaged in Auto mode. I've just done a quick very unscientific test comparing the noise level of my X2400H using the three modes (without Audyssey set up). Using a sound level app with my phone's mic an inch from the tweeter, the noise level was 2dB higher using Auto mode than the 'direct' modes (both the same as far as I could tell), with the AVR's volume set to max (streaming HEOS source). So it does look like the direct modes make a difference. Whether this difference would be audible at normal listening levels and distances is debatable though. This needs more investigation really.
 
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Icboschert

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Hello @amirm , I know you are super busy and have been doing a lot for us who crave for reviews and measurements but if you still have the AVR-X3500H, could you please please measure the pre out again at 2 V, with Pure Direct engaged and disable ECO mode? I understand your point about not seeing signs of the analog signal being digitize in Stereo, but if you look at the evidence (may be only circumstantial) provided in post#125 and #148, it does look like it gets digitized unless the switchers NJU72750 were switched in the right place.

It would make sense that requires the unit be set to pure direct, otherwise Audyssey could still be engaged, implying that in Stereo the switcher will direct the analog input signal to the ADC because in Stereo, Audyssey can be engaged.
I'm curious if you have some vested interested in seeing the Denon/Marantz items score higher? Just a little pedantic about this whole thing. Even if the processing is causing a drop, realistically how much SINAD could be gained?
 

Theriverlethe

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Not necessarily. I have one theory why Amir’s tests showed no difference between auto, stereo and pure direct: because Audyssey curve was not preloaded into his receiver. In my experience and in my room Audyssey makes music sound worse, especially if I don’t use a dedicated app to set a cutoff frequency for correction. It by definition makes measurements objectively worse since it deliberately introduces changes to the signal.

It was 2 years ago when I owned Denon x3400 so my memory of how different it was in stereo vs. pure direct may be failing me, but one thing I remember for sure: when I switched from x3400 to x4500 the noise in “pure direct” became inaudible: whereas I could hear some slight hissing on x3400 when the volume was high and the music was supposed to be dead silent, the same moments were dead silent on x4500.

Dear owners of Denon 4400/4500/6400/6500 living in the US: please consider offering Amir to test your gear! Would be great to see how much better these machines objectively are. I am willing to reimburse 50% of the shipping cost.

The purpose of room correction is to reduce linear distortion introduced by the room acoustics, so it’s debatable that this alteration of the signal is a form of distortion. Audyssey can definitely produce a worse outcome than you started with, especially if you don’t have the ability to measure and counteract Audyssey’s “mistakes.”

This has nothing to do with tiny amounts of non-linear distortion produced by circuitry in the signal path.
 

Gedeon

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Not necessarily. I have one theory why Amir’s tests showed no difference between auto, stereo and pure direct: because Audyssey curve was not preloaded into his receiver. In my experience and in my room Audyssey makes music sound worse, especially if I don’t use a dedicated app to set a cutoff frequency for correction. It by definition makes measurements objectively worse since it deliberately introduces changes to the signal.

It was 2 years ago when I owned Denon x3400 so my memory of how different it was in stereo vs. pure direct may be failing me, but one thing I remember for sure: when I switched from x3400 to x4500 the noise in “pure direct” became inaudible: whereas I could hear some slight hissing on x3400 when the volume was high and the music was supposed to be dead silent, the same moments were dead silent on x4500.

Dear owners of Denon 4400/4500/6400/6500 living in the US: please consider offering Amir to test your gear! Would be great to see how much better these machines objectively are. I am willing to reimburse 50% of the shipping cost.

In my case, however, mostly due to my aged speakers and my room, movies and music sound better with Audissey enabled. No doubts. Like night and day to my ears.

That's why I don't feel very excited in adding a DAC to the chain, since I had to add an external player to perform a FIR convolution before sending the bits to the DAC. And not remotely sure if could ever notice any improvement if the D&M DACs deliver +95db SNR signal. I think that's good enough in my environment/setup.

If the AVR in pure direct would be transparent enough I could give a try, but, to be honest, not sure it could worth the effort and investment. Too many variables.
 

maty

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BTW, with Pure Direct work the electronics of Wi-Fi, Net and Radio too.

The key with modern AVR is to have loudspeakers with high sensitivity (true 88 dB or more) and minimum impedance > 3.5 - 4 Ohms -> work more relieved and generate less heat. And much more with the latest AVR Denon / Marantz.

And, the smoother the frequency response at the listening point, easier to the Room EQ; in a not very problematic room of course.
 
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peng

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I'm curious if you have some vested interested in seeing the Denon/Marantz items score higher? Just a little pedantic about this whole thing. Even if the processing is causing a drop, realistically how much SINAD could be gained?

I do, owned/own both, and for a very long time. Not that I can hear a difference between 75 and say 95, just that I am very curious about those things. I am under the impression that Amir is too, may be to different extent..
 

peng

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Not necessarily. I have one theory why Amir’s tests showed no difference between auto, stereo and pure direct: because Audyssey curve was not preloaded into his receiver. In my experience and in my room Audyssey makes music sound worse, especially if I don’t use a dedicated app to set a cutoff frequency for correction. It by definition makes measurements objectively worse since it deliberately introduces changes to the signal.

It was 2 years ago when I owned Denon x3400 so my memory of how different it was in stereo vs. pure direct may be failing me, but one thing I remember for sure: when I switched from x3400 to x4500 the noise in “pure direct” became inaudible: whereas I could hear some slight hissing on x3400 when the volume was high and the music was supposed to be dead silent, the same moments were dead silent on x4500.

Dear owners of Denon 4400/4500/6400/6500 living in the US: please consider offering Amir to test your gear! Would be great to see how much better these machines objectively are. I am willing to reimburse 50% of the shipping cost.

I guess I missed your point.. As far as I know, in Stereo mode you can have Audyssey on, or off. If you turned it off, then it has no effects and I am sure Amir had it off, isn't that his standard practice, to not engage any EQ systems for his bench measurements?
 

Vovgan

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I guess I missed your point.. As far as I know, in Stereo mode you can have Audyssey on, or off. If you turned it off, then it has no effects and I am sure Amir had it off, isn't that his standard practice, to not engage any EQ systems for his bench measurements?

Actually you’ve got my point exactly right. My point was that these modes showed identical results in the test because Audyssey was turned off. But in my case I had Audyssey activated (for movies), and so when I selected “stereo” instead of “pure direct” for my analogue inputs Denon must have digitized the signal first and thus I was experiencing degraded sound quality.

So “Pure direct” is not snake oil marketing. It could have been named “Audyssey is definitely turned off, and we’ve also switched off the AVR’s display and a few other things that can potentially produce tiny extra EMI”, but that would be a bit of a mouthful.
 
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Gedeon

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Actually you’ve got my point exactly right. My point was that these modes showed identical results in the test because Audyssey was turned off. But in my case I had Audyssey activated (for movies), and so when I selected “stereo” instead of “pure direct” for my analogue inputs Denon must have digitized the signal first and thus I was experiencing degraded sound quality.

So “Pure direct” is not snake oil marketing. It could have been named “Audyssey is definitely turned off, and we’ve also switched off the AVR’s display and a few other things that can potentially produce tiny extra EMI”, but that would be a bit of a mouthful.

But... with these AVRs nowadays which implement DLNA players, several Internet streaming services, and a good bunch of digital inputs... Do we have the need to add an external source using analog inputs to improve the experience through speakers?

Are those EMI (and other potential sources of noise/distorsión) and a few dbs better (when talking above 90dbs...) measurements really audible in a non-faulty device of this kind ?

If DAC and the Amp are "good enough" for normal rooms and reasonably good speakers, even at high, but not painful, volume levels... pretty difficult to hear differences. A really hard task.

That's why many enthusiasts choose good headphones instead using speakers+room setups when hunting for minor audible differences in sources, and many times they are unable to say the difference.
 

Vovgan

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But... with these AVRs nowadays which implement DLNA players, several Internet streaming services, and a good bunch of digital inputs... Do we have the need to add an external source using analog inputs to improve the experience through speakers?

Good question. If the theory which is propagated here is right, there is no point in having a DAC more than +/- 10 dBs cleaner than the amp - no difference will be heard. In this Denon’s AVR the internal DAC is shown to have at least 10 dBs higher SINAD (1 volt) - so this school of thought should agree with you: no point in adding external DAC.

HOWEVER, in my case I do hear the difference when I feed the analogue signal from my Chord Qutest instead of using internal Denon’s amp. My wife hears the difference too and we both clearly prefer what we get through the Qutest. Heck, we even feel tat we prefer Qutest to Topping DX7 Pro! That being said, we now actually have Denon 6500, so maybe it has a much better amplification quality with no better DAC than in 3500. Cannot think of any other explanation for this.
 
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