Just came back from my first audio show and oh boy

[GrimSurfer]

I remember one room, guy selling power conditioners or whatnot. He made a claim that it’s better to run all your components off 1 outlet socket rather than multiple dedicated lines. He said he used to have like 5 dedicated lines, then his friend told him to just get a cheap power strip and use that, and he said it sounded better, so that’s how he got into the business. I’m no electrical engineer, so no clue if that’s true.

This can certainly reduce the risk of a ground loop. Provided the gear's electrical needs don't overtax the circuit, it's probably a good thing.

No comment on power conditioners...

 

[Mtbf]

Anyway, after the conversation I thought of a really good response to those kind of people. It's very simple – I can enjoy the same amount as you while spending the fraction of the money. So who is better off, really?

Reminds me of a friend who once told me that all cars are the same, because they all have four wheels and a steering wheel. Lucky him.

 

[Julf]

Reminds me of a friend who once told me that all cars are the same, because they all have four wheels and a steering wheel. Lucky him.

Reminds me of a friend that was convinced putting a magnet in the fuel tank made his car go much faster.

 

[JohnYang1997]

My first audio show was like: almost all rooms sound like shit. Too loud too harsh. Only 1 2 rooms are listenable.

 

[scott wurcer]

Yeah, I had to chuckle at the review in the latest Stereophile for the darTZeel NHB-468 monos... $170K a pair and there were problems with them which "luckily seemed to be things that could be fixed with a firmware update" JA thought.

Note the distortion performance and JA's comment, "But the NHB-458 is a very quiet amplifier, and these traces reveal that the distortion is, very unusually, higher at lower powers than at higher powers, at least until the amplifier starts to clip."

This is one of those amplifiers where it is useful to separate the THD and noise especially when the THD at 1W is a "stellar" -48dB.

 

[MZKM]

This can certainly reduce the risk of a ground loop. Provided the gear's electrical needs don't overtax the circuit, it's probably a good thing.

No comment on power conditioners...

Forgot about that, but that wasn't it, it was something to do with like different resistances or something.

EDIT: Found what I wrote down in my notes:
Ansuz Acoustics: Described the benefit of his power distributor by saying way back when, he had dedicated circuits for all his components, someone told him that was wrong as you are increasing inductance, and that only one outlet should be used, so he got a $5 IKEA power strip and he said "God dammit, it fucking sounded better!"

 

[MattHooper]

Sorry to hear about the miserable audio show experience.

I happen to enjoy audio shows. I just came from the Toronto Audio Fest today and had a very nice time.

Things I don't like: challenging hotel rooms that make for bad sound in many cases. And most of all, when systems are played Way Too Loud!
I dislike the "ear burn out" I get when I've overdone it at a show (which is why I tend to avoid the loud rooms, or manage to ask them to turn it to a sane volume for me).

What I like: I love seeing all the wild and wacky audio gear, from the ugly, to the puzzling, to the beautiful audio jewelery.
And even though the rooms can be challenging acoustically, I find that to a certain degree I can - as Floyd Toole tells us - "hear through" the room somewhat to the character of a speaker. So I get to hear brands I have always wanted to hear, and while it may not be at their best, I often get a gist of their character.

I had numerous very nice demos at today's audio show. It helps coming on a Friday, and early, so the rooms may have no one else, or just a couple other show goers. I heard all sorts of speakers I've always wanted to hear, with the type of music I requested (sometimes). I meat an old "audio pal" and we checked out various rooms together. It was quite fun. Take that, curmudgeons! ;-)

 

[Xulonn]

What I like: I love seeing all the wild and wacky audio gear, from the ugly, to the puzzling, to the beautiful audio jewelry.

The most fun I ever had at an audio show was VSAC 2003 in Silverdale, Washington, back in the days when I moderated the three Vacuum tube forums at AudioAsylum.com.

===================
I had a lot of fun hanging out with some rather well-known members of the "fringe" crowd of vacuum tube fanatics - from DIY'ers to Josh Stippich and his insane Electron Luv amps. Those were the days when I owned a pair of Klipsch Forte II's driven by a handmade 2.5wpc Italian 2A3 Tektron amplifier. (I eventually sold the Forte II's to Charlie Kittleman of Vacuum Tube Valley magazine in Clearlake, California.)
===================

 

[Murrayp]

At the risk of getting myself kicked off here, this thread reads with almost a bitterness that comes through any time an expensive piece of kit is discussed. Why not just go along to a show and enjoy what you can, and give and take a little ("the only thing I can't stand is intolerance!"). The sound anywhere (I guess other than the original) is a simulacrum - how well it's achieved can vary for a lot of reasons. The rooms and very limited set-up time usually mean achieving enjoyable sound at a show is a pig in a poke. So what do we learn from a room we don't like the sound of - not a lot, move on. How about a room that sounds (to us) great? Then at least you know that kit can sound great (to you). Whether your preferences are accurate of course is something you'll need to calibrate to be acceptable on this forum.

But why harp on about the prices? What has this to do with the objectives of this forum? It comes across very poorly - almost like inverse snobbery. Please get over yourselves. The are are manufacturers and vendors who deserve contempt, but there are many honest ones who do spend a great deal of effort and investment developing quite excellent products that people enjoy - and they inevitably show the development cost. Of course they tart the their offerings up - but everyone does what they can to draw attention. As noted elsewhere - we don't all drive the same car - and there are lots of reasons other than measured performance.

Perhaps we are biased here by near perfect dacs that cost a few dollars - all that I have seen are simply implementations of commercial ics - ok well done turning a chip into a product - but the kudos really lies with the chip makers. The same goes for low power amplifiers - often simply implementations using superlative ics. How about higher power amplifiers though, or speakers? There's no absolute here - some like Maggies, some dynamic, some horns..... it's hobby for heaven's sake - pick the good stuff and enjoy it, but let's stop being holier-than-thou because we don't think $10,000 for a pair of speakers is sensible.

Just my 2c - I'll lower my head now. Currently listening to a Matrix Sabre dac here that I learnt about on this forum. Sounds great - woops am I allowed to say that without supporting measurement or ABX? I wonder how to calibrate enjoyment? Yes I have attended many hifi shows around the world over 20 years and I can't think of one I didn't enjoy or learn something from.

M

 

[MattHooper]

("the only thing I can't stand is intolerance!").

And the Dutch!!!!

 

[anmpr1]

At the risk of getting myself kicked off here...

But why harp on about the prices? What has this to do with the objectives of this forum? ...

I don't speak for the site owner, but why would you get 'kicked off' ASR for expressing a non-hostile opinion? Is that what goes on at other audio sites, and because if it you are a little defensive? I wouldn't worry.

One 'objective' of this forum (and the site), as I see it, is to offer information allowing us to compare, in order to make a reasonable determination of audio related value. Price is certainly one factor. But there are others.

Analogy: If you go to an auto show, and check out the latest GT2 you won't be surprised by the price. A) because it's a Porsche, and B) for what it offers it's probably worth the price--at least at some level. The guy standing next to you might tell you that it's not good value, when you can buy a ZR1 for a third of the price, but everyone understands the difference, and how each represents value in it's own way.

Contrast the audio show. A manufacturer demonstrating an 8 watt SET for three times the price of an AHB-1 sort of invites ridicule. It would be similar to VW asking the price of a Cayman for their Beetle, using the excuse that, well...it's sort of got some Porsche DNA in it, if you go back far enough.

Fair? I don't know. But that's the deal.

 

[Julf]

Contrast the audio show. A manufacturer demonstrating an 8 watt SET for three times the price of an AHB-1 sort of invites ridicule. It would be similar to VW asking the price of a Cayman for their Beetle, using the excuse that, well...it's sort of got some Porsche DNA in it, if you go back far enough.

That I can take, it is the people selling furry dice for $1999 and claiming they make cars go faster that spoil it for the rest.

 

[watchnerd]

At the risk of getting myself kicked off here, this thread reads with almost a bitterness that comes through any time an expensive piece of kit is discussed. Why not just go along to a show and enjoy what you can, and give and take a little ("the only thing I can't stand is intolerance!"). The sound anywhere (I guess other than the original) is a simulacrum - how well it's achieved can vary for a lot of reasons. The rooms and very limited set-up time usually mean achieving enjoyable sound at a show is a pig in a poke. So what do we learn from a room we don't like the sound of - not a lot, move on. How about a room that sounds (to us) great? Then at least you know that kit can sound great (to you). Whether your preferences are accurate of course is something you'll need to calibrate to be acceptable on this forum.

But why harp on about the prices? What has this to do with the objectives of this forum? It comes across very poorly - almost like inverse snobbery. Please get over yourselves. The are are manufacturers and vendors who deserve contempt, but there are many honest ones who do spend a great deal of effort and investment developing quite excellent products that people enjoy - and they inevitably show the development cost. Of course they tart the their offerings up - but everyone does what they can to draw attention. As noted elsewhere - we don't all drive the same car - and there are lots of reasons other than measured performance.

Perhaps we are biased here by near perfect dacs that cost a few dollars - all that I have seen are simply implementations of commercial ics - ok well done turning a chip into a product - but the kudos really lies with the chip makers. The same goes for low power amplifiers - often simply implementations using superlative ics. How about higher power amplifiers though, or speakers? There's no absolute here - some like Maggies, some dynamic, some horns..... it's hobby for heaven's sake - pick the good stuff and enjoy it, but let's stop being holier-than-thou because we don't think $10,000 for a pair of speakers is sensible.

Just my 2c - I'll lower my head now. Currently listening to a Matrix Sabre dac here that I learnt about on this forum. Sounds great - woops am I allowed to say that without supporting measurement or ABX? I wonder how to calibrate enjoyment? Yes I have attended many hifi shows around the world over 20 years and I can't think of one I didn't enjoy or learn something from.

M

Yeah, I'd agree that ASR members generally like taking a piss out of expensive gear.

Sometimes, if the gear is badly engineered, it's well deserved.

Other times, if well engineered but also expensive jewelry, people will moan about how it's pointless to buy when an equally good alternative can be bought for 1/10th the price.

 

[watchnerd]

Contrast the audio show. A manufacturer demonstrating an 8 watt SET for three times the price of an AHB-1 sort of invites ridicule.

Only if he claimed it was a technically better amp.

Patek Phillipe watches cost >50-100x more than a Casio G-Shock; nobody claims the Patek is more accurate than the G-Shock, but people will pay for more the Patek for a variety of other reasons (status, artistry, etc.).

I don't have a problem with someone paying stupid money for a SET that looks awesome if it floats their aesthetic boat and they don't try to pretend it's technically superior.

Isn't one the points of having more money to have some nice things before you die?

We all only get one ride, and it's a short one....

 

[digicidal]

I agree to a point with that criticism... but even if you consider an intrinsic value in "opulence" alone - in the same vein you also have to accept that the masses should at least be afforded the opportunity to vent some frustration at it.

Honestly, I think most on here wouldn't have anything negative to say about a $10K component that showed outstanding measurements, beautiful casework, and a robust warranty. The problem is more with a pedestrian (or even horrible) performing product that had 10X the effort spent on crafting it's chassis than was spent on ensuring accuracy and reliability of the electronics inside.

For what it's worth, I make just as much fun of a pointlessly chrome-plated car or gun or colored power tool.

 

[watchnerd]

I agree to a point with that criticism... but even if you consider an intrinsic value in "opulence" alone - in the same vein you also have to accept that the masses should at least be afforded the opportunity to vent some frustration at it.

Honestly, I think most on here wouldn't have anything negative to say about a $10K component that showed outstanding measurements, beautiful casework, and a robust warranty. The problem is more with a pedestrian (or even horrible) performing product that had 10X the effort spent on crafting it's chassis than was spent on ensuring accuracy and reliability of the electronics inside.

For what it's worth, I make just as much fun of a pointlessly chrome-plated car or gun or colored power tool.

Well.....let's try a test case...

The Luxman SQ-N150 is $2800.

By most reports, it seems to be very well made, no shoddy engineering.

I don't think Luxman tries to con or fool anyone about the specs:

Rated output 10W+10W(6Ω)

Total harmonic distortion 1% or less (1kHz, 10W/6Ω)

But, ultimately, it is what it is.....a lower power tube amp with worse distortion specs than far cheaper alternatives tested here on ASR and elsewhere.

Worthy of ridicule for its bad specs?

Or worthy of respect for the quality work that went into it?

 

[Killingbeans]

But why harp on about the prices? What has this to do with the objectives of this forum?

Personally I see objectivity as something that encompasses awareness and rationality regarding the motivations behind ones actions. That includes throwing huge amounts of money at a product.

I have no problem with audio jewelry and personal taste. By all means, spend all the money you want on that. I couldn't care less.

Paying massive amounts of money for a product that is essentially just a static EQ/effects box is something I find silly. It doesn't make me bitter. I just think it's waste of both time and money.

What do however make my bitter (or probaly just disappointed) is when large sums are spent on mysticism and alchemy. Of course the money itself is not be blamed for anything. But the fact that it's spent on something that couldn't be farther removed from objectivity is just sad beyond comprehension.

 

[Soniclife]

Totally. Just remembered another funny thing that happened – at the room where they showed the Martin Logan it mostly played quiet female vocals, but somehow the track jumped to a song by Muse. Just as it started getting loud, the vendor quickly skipped the track to go back to the smooth vocal recording. A guy that sat next to me told him disappointedly that the Muse was actually a good testing track, and the vendor quietly said "yeah I know".

Sounds like he understands the following chart.

And he needs to stay on the right hand side, or people might mock his speakers.
(Chart from https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sic-tracks-for-speaker-and-room-eq-testing.6/)

 

[digicidal]

Well.....let's try a test case...

The Luxman SQ-N150 is $2800.

By most reports, it seems to be very well made, no shoddy engineering.

I don't think Luxman tries to con or fool anyone about the specs:

Rated output 10W+10W(6Ω)

Total harmonic distortion 1% or less (1kHz, 10W/6Ω)

But, ultimately, it is what it is.....a lower power tube amp with worse distortion specs than far cheaper alternatives tested here on ASR and elsewhere.

Worthy of ridicule for its bad specs?

Or worthy of respect for the quality work that went into it?

Considering it's a beautiful design (and VU's get's an extra +1 every time ), and further that they honestly publish the, admittedly dismal, specifications - I'd say it's a perfect example. If you purchase it, you got what you paid for... without deception. I'd also say for $2800, it's not even overpriced much... on sale, I'd even consider getting one myself.

Now if they were asking $15K for it, and marketing it as "the best sound available at the price"... less impressive for sure. If they also try to "educate you" into buying a $750+ power cord for it to "fully unlock the excellence" - let the insults rain down endlessly.

Although if I were going with the brand... I'd skip the bottles and just get one of these:

 

[GrimSurfer]

It cuts both ways.

Paying $10k for an amp that generates audible noise and distortion is stupid. So too is paying $500 for an amp that generates audible noise.

One can do better than standing on the extremes of excess or thrift; choose gear based on its verifiable performance.