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What is it about McIntosh?

anmpr1

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Does Mac still use output transformers in SS amps ? As Paul McGowan used to say (about tube amps, but not DACs of course :rolleyes:) those tend to limit your bandwidth and muddy your bass :confused:
Good that Paul is on top of this stuff. Does this mean we will soon be seeing an updated version of Futterman's OTL from PS? :facepalm:
 

GrimSurfer

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Transformer design was one of McIntosh's strong points. (Bifilar and Trifilar windings)

Yeah, Mc certainly puts deliberate effort into their transformers. PS Audio (and a great many others) could learn a lesson of two from the boys in Binghamton.
 

GrimSurfer

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Good that Paul is on top of this stuff. Does this mean we will soon be seeing an updated version of Futterman's OTL from PS? :facepalm:

As PM would say, "gee, golly, shucks, darn, that's a good question @anmpr1".
 

anmpr1

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Yeah, along with Martin Logan, B&W and KEF. They have some AVR's but I don't remember the brands.
I wonder, do they sell this stuff in the main store? I mean, is someone looking for twenty or thirty thousand dollars worth of amplifiers going be willing to snake their way through the laptop PCs and refrigerators in order to get to the super-exclusive high-end department? Maybe BB just sends a designer to your home, and you pick out what you want from a catalog.
 

blueone

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In my testing, the autoformers were useful for increasing current into low impedance loads while not increasing output stage dissipation. Likewise, they were useful for increasing voltage swing into high impedance loads. Bandwidth was good, distortion was low. I’d call it a good design for the intended application.

I'm not following your argument. A typical low output impedance solid state output stage will produce about 50% more power into four ohm loads as compared to eight ohm loads. Many products do better than that. Assuming both the McIntosh and the competing solid state amplifier without output transformers have 300 watts per channel into eight ohm loads, the McIntosh with autoformers is still rated to produce 300 watts per channel into four ohms, while the competing amp will probably produce over 450 watts per channel. How are the autoformers useful for increasing current into low impedance loads with modern solid state output stages? (Using the MC312 as an example, and an ATI 6002 as the counter example.)

Here are some recent test measurements from Stereophile on an MC462, and while the distortion and noise characteristics are excellent, the power output characteristics are idiosyncratic, and the gain varying with the autoformer tap selected could be problematic. Wimpy pre-amps need not apply.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-laboratory-mc462-power-amplifier-measurements

I'm sure the MC462 still sounds excellent into 4 ohm speakers, and 450 watts per channel is a lot of power into any load, but this is a $9000 stereo amplifier. The output transformers add a lot of weight and cost to this product, and they look very much like an expensive gimmick that perhaps aren't completely without redeeming qualities, but still an unnecessary gimmick.
 

GrimSurfer

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I wonder, do they sell this stuff in the main store? I mean, is someone looking for twenty or thirty thousand dollars worth of amplifiers going be willing to snake their way through the laptop PCs and refrigerators in order to get to the super-exclusive high-end department? Maybe BB just sends a designer to your home, and you pick out what you want from a catalog.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cashed_up_bogan

The Aussies have a wonderful way with words and have created a term that describes how this could actually work at BB.
 

Ron Texas

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I wonder, do they sell this stuff in the main store? I mean, is someone looking for twenty or thirty thousand dollars worth of amplifiers going be willing to snake their way through the laptop PCs and refrigerators in order to get to the super-exclusive high-end department? Maybe BB just sends a designer to your home, and you pick out what you want from a catalog.

Magnolia is in a separate area with a dedicated sales staff. Stuff like Polk and Klipsch is sold in the main store. They do have people available to advise on a complete system, usually a theater setup. I have bought stuff from them because there is so little competition in Houston.
 
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Percheron

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There is a dealer closer than I thought, they have a C-52 preamp on clearance for around $6k. Compared to other high end stuff it’s like a bargain. I thought the Jeep hobby was expensive!!
 

GrimSurfer

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I understand preamps insofar as multiple input management, but anyone into digital music would be very well served with a great DAC with digital volume control + amp.

For $6k, 2 x AHB2s and going an extra $500 for a DAC represents good engineering and performance.
 

Xulonn

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The looks have been growing on me lately, as has the industrial vibe. I work for a large aerospace company and McIntosh would blend in with some of the equipment seen in labs..

I worked as a technical salesman (mostly super precision bearings and rotating components for aerospace) in Southern California from 1978-1981, and one of my customers was Hughes Space and Communications. When I was a rookie in that sales territory, I was given a tour of part of the facility - including the receiving department and QA. Nestled in a huge array of rack-mounted electronics in QA was a pair of big McIntosh audio amplifiers, blue meters and all - which I was told were being used as some kind of power supplies.
 

GrimSurfer

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IIRC, some of their guys started out in the tech/medical field (as did Bryston).

That time and place in the aerospace industry must have been fascinating, @Xulonn.
 
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Percheron

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IIRC, some of their guys started out in the tech/medical field (as did Bryston).

That time and place in the aerospace industry must have been fascinating, @Xulonn.

Back before nerds were billionaires!

Really though, if there’s a culture of enthusiasts for the brand that maintains the resale prices then one could maybe justify the entry cost. Harley, like I mentioned, Jeep and maybe a few other brands also have this. Though Harley has been taking a beating lately.
 
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GrimSurfer

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Management and senior engineers at that time were all WWII or Korea vets. Many went to school on the GI Bill after having travelled (under canvas) and picking up life lessons (value of human life, friendship, and hot meals). It was a work hard, play hard culture... infused with so much cash to support ground breaking R&D.

A bit before my time (90s) which gave rise to what could be called a comfort class, with all that it entailed.
 

Xulonn

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Mac was mythical in my early years when I dove into the audio world. Not very exposed in my area growing up,

Just before Christmas in 1961 I was a freshman college student who was back home for the holidays in Chicago with a temporary job of delivering mail - when Christmas cards were still popular - and long before the advent of email and the internet. At that time I had three years experience of being a monaural audio enthusiast, and the world was quickly moving towards stereo audio.

While delivering the mail on Chicago's southwest side one bitterly cold day - the low was -14 that previous night - I walked into into a little barber shop on 55th Street near Kedzie Avenue to warm up a bit. Once inside, I noticed a big pair of "low-boy" floor-standing loudspeakers right in front of the three barber chairs. Between the speakers was a cabinet with big black and chrome audio electronic components. The music was not too loud, but incredibly clear and lifelike to me.

It turned out that The speakers were Bozak - probably infinite baffle B305's, and the electronics were McIntosh - a pair of MC60 vacuum tube power amps, and probably either a C11 or C20 preamp.

Bozak.jpg

MC60s.jpg

I don't remember the tuner or turntable. I lusted after McIntosh for many years after that, but the only Macs I ever owned were a Mac1900 receiver and later, a used MR-74 AM/FM Tuner.

It certainly was, by far, the best stereo I had heard up to that time. But now I see the Macs as a bit too "blingy" for my tastes, and agree that the use of "autoformer" transformers is not a good modern design, adding unnecessary weight and complication to the amps.
 
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Xulonn

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That time and place in the aerospace industry must have been fascinating, @Xulonn.

Indeed. One of my company's customers was a small obscure aerospace contractor whose name I don't remember. We worked with them on a ball bearing assembly for a mechanical subcomponent that was to go on the Hubble Space Telescope. The Hubble was originally intended to be launched in the early 1980's, but technical and funding roblems delayed the launch until 1990, and even then, a serious problem prevented the telescope from working properly until a Space Shuttle repair crew made a "service call" on it to fix the problems in December, 1993.

After that, the Hubble worked as intended and humans viewed the solar system, galaxy and universe in far more detail than had ever been done in the past. It felt good to make even a very tiny contribution to that magnificent technical achievement.

Edit: Sorry for the off-topic comment, but Grimsurfer triggered some fond memories.
 

anmpr1

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Nestled in a huge array of rack-mounted electronics in QA was a pair of big McIntosh audio amplifiers, blue meters and all - which I was told were being used as some kind of power supplies.
I read somewhere that in earlier days, McIntosh amps were used on Navy subs. I know the company had an industrial/commerical presence due to their then high quality build and beefy power output--I'm talking the big ones like the MC-2300.
 

anmpr1

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There is a dealer closer than I thought, they have a C-52 preamp on clearance for around $6k. Compared to other high end stuff it’s like a bargain. I thought the Jeep hobby was expensive!!
The best Jeep is an old beat up Wrangler, bought pennies on the dollar. I don't know if that is true for McIntosh. A Mac is probably made better than any modern-day Jeep (I've owned two of the 2-door Wranglers), but probably isn't going to be as fun. Especially in the mud.
 
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