SINAD table colour brackets

[watchnerd]

Nothing currently can provide beyond ~21 bits of resolution. The limitation is noise and distortion.

Exactly my point.

So the >20 bits / 120 dB top range of the SINAD scale will almost never be true.

 

[pozz]

Exactly my point.

So the >20 bits / 120 dB top range of the SINAD scale will almost never be true.

Right, and we have a few examples where it is, like the Matrix DACs and Benchmark preamplifiers. Hopefully more manufacturers shoot for it.

 

[watchnerd]

Right, and we have a few examples where it is, like the Matrix DACs and Benchmark preamplifiers super mega awesome TotalDAC. Hopefully more manufacturers shoot for it.

FIFY

 

[Matias]

Exactly my point.

So the >20 bits / 120 dB top range of the SINAD scale will almost never be true.

Which is good. Let the blue scale be something really, really special only the very best can achieve.

 

[watchnerd]

Which is good. Let the blue scale be something really, really special only the very best can achieve.

I like that better than just blue being the top quintile.

 

[FooYatChong]

Hi @pozz, if we take a part of your list and link it, would that help you? Can you copy this over to your list?
Turn it into a joint effort.

69.9…………………………..……Hifime UDA38Pro
68.0……………………………..…Ayre CODEX (XLR Out)
67.8………………………………..Ayre CODEX (RCA Out)
67.4………..………………………Bluesound NODE 2i (S/PDIF In)
65.0…………..……………………Audio-gd R2R-11
61.4……………..…………………Woo Audio WA7 & WA7tp
59.4………………..………………NAD 7050
55.3…………………..……………Audio-gd NFB-28.28 (Fixed Output, XLR Out)
53.8……………………..…………Fostex HP-A3 (USB In)
51.7..………………………………Bluesound NODE 2i (TOSLINK In)

 

[pozz]

Hi @pozz, if we take a part of your list and link it, would that help you? Can you copy this over to your list?
Turn it into a joint effort.

69.9…………………………..……Hifime UDA38Pro
68.0……………………………..…Ayre CODEX (XLR Out)
67.8………………………………..Ayre CODEX (RCA Out)
67.4………..………………………Bluesound NODE 2i (S/PDIF In)
65.0…………..……………………Audio-gd R2R-11
61.4……………..…………………Woo Audio WA7 & WA7tp
59.4………………..………………NAD 7050
55.3…………………..……………Audio-gd NFB-28.28 (Fixed Output, XLR Out)
53.8……………………..…………Fostex HP-A3 (USB In)
51.7..………………………………Bluesound NODE 2i (TOSLINK In)

That would be excellent. Thanks!

 

[FooYatChong]

Ok, then I propose that everybody who wants to help creates a post to reserve the part they'll be doing so we avoid double work. Like this.

Lists can be found at Master Index of Measurement Comparison Charts


113.3………………………………Auralic Vega DAC
113.1………………………………SMSL VMV D1 (XLR Out)
112.5………………………………Benchmark DAC3 DX
111.9………………………………SMSL VMV D1 (RCA Out)
111.7………………………………RME ADI-2 (RCA Out)
111.6………………………………RME ADI-2 (XLR Out)
111.6………………………………Yulong DA10 SE
111.3………………………………March Audio DAC1
111.2………………………………Topping D50s
111.1………………………………Aune X1S
111.0………………………………Digital Amplifier Company DAC 1 HS
111.0………………………………miniDSP SHD
110.7………………………………Loxjie D10
110.3………………………………Linn Akurate DSM
110.2………………………………Grace Design m900
109.8………………………………Geshelli ENOG2 Pro (RCA Out)
109.8………………………………Orchard Audio Apple Pi & Volume+Clocker
109.8………………………………Aurender A10
109.8………………………………E1DA 9038S
109.8………………………………SMSL SU-8 V2 (XLR Out)
109.7………………………………SMSL SU-8 V2 (RCA Out)
109.6………………………………Topping D70 (XLR Out)
109.5………………………………LG G7 ThinQ (Quad DAC)
109.5………………………………WesionTEK Khadas Tone Board
109.5………………………………Chord 2Qute
109.3………………………………Oppo HA-1 (Fixed Output)
109.2………………………………Allo Katana
109.0………………………………JDS Labs EL DAC (S/PDIF In)
108.7………………………………Topping D70 (RCA Out)
108.4………………………………NAD M51 (HDMI In, XLR Out)
108.3………………………………NAD M51 (XLR Out)
107.9………………………………Topping DX7s
107.6………………………………Orchard Audio Apple Pi DAC
107.6………………………………Creative SoundBlasterX G6 (TOSLINK In)
107.5………………………………Musiland MU2 Plus
107.5………………………………Geshelli ENOG2 Pro (XLR Out)
107.4………………………………Audiophonics I-Sabre (ES9038Q2M)
107.1………………………………Holo Audio Cyan DSD (XLR Out, DSD64)
106.9………………………………Schiit Modi 3 (USB In)
106.9………………………………Mytek Stereo 192 DSD (XLR Out)
106.5………………………………Monoprice Monolith THX AAA DAC (Desktop)
106.5………………………………Topping A30
106.3………………………………xDuoo TA-10
106.3………………………………SMSL Sanskrit 10th (External Power)
106.2………………………………Topping D50
106.0………………………………Creative SoundBlasterX G6 (USB In)
105.9………………………………LG G5 Hi-Fi Plus
105.9………………………………Topping DX3Pro
105.7………………………………JDS Labs EL DAC (USB In)
105.7………………………………ZorLoo ZuperDAC-S
105.5………………………………NuPrime uDSD (RCA Out, Min. Volume)
105.3………………………………NAD M51 (RCA Out)
105.1………………………………Cowon Plenue 2
105.1………………………………Topping D10
104.9………………………………Apogee Groove
104.9………………………………Benchmark DAC1 USB
104.9………………………………Monoprice Monolith THX AAA DAC (Portable)
104.9………………………………Schiit Modi 3 (S/PDIF In)
104.8………………………………Musical Fidelity V90
104.6………………………………Lynx Hilo
104.6………………………………LG G7 ThinQ (Standard DAC)
104.5………………………………Orchard Audio Gala
104.4………………………………Topping D30
104.3………………………………Topping NX4 DSD
104.2………………………………Mytek Stereo 192 DSD (RCA Out)
103.3………………………………Gustard A20H
102.7………………………………Holo Audio Cyan DSD (XLR Out)
102.4………………………………Massdrop Grace Design Balanced DAC
102.4………………………………SMSL M100

@pozz This one is done. Couldn't find the Creative SoundBlasterX G6.

 

[martijn86]

Ok, then I propose that everybody who wants to help creates a post to reserve the part they'll be doing so we avoid double work. Like this.

I'll update this post with links.

89.7………..………………………Sony RSX-GS9
89.6…………..……………………Sony STR-ZA1100ES
89.5……………..…………………Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2 SE
89.2………………..………………Google Dongle V1
89.0…………………..……………Samsung S8+
88.6……………………..…………FiiO Q1 Mk2
88.3………………………..………Sony UDA-1 (Min. Volume)
88.0…………………………..……AudioQuest Dragonfly Red
87.9……………………………..…CEntrance DACPort HD
87.5…..……………………………Bluesound NODE 2i (Roon Stream)
87.4……..…………………………Peachtree novaPre
86.8………..………………………SMSL SU-8 V1 (XLR Out)
86.8…………..……………………HP Z-14
86.7……………..…………………Amazon Link Amp
86.1………………..………………Pi 2 Design 502DAC
85.6…………………..……………Schiit Yggdrasil V2
85.6……………………..…………PiFi DAC+ V2
85.5………………………..………Google Dongle V2
85.3…………………………..……Teac HA-P50
85.2……………………………..…Marantz HD-AMP1
84.8………………………………..Soekris dac1421
84.4…..……………………………Totaldac d1-six
84.1……..…………………………Schiit Jotunheim Multibit
84.0………..………………………ENCORE mDSD
83.9…………..……………………Audio-gd DAC-19
83.9……………..…………………Sony HAP-S1
83.0………………..………………PS Audio Sprout100
82.9…………………..……………Topping MX3
82.9……………………..…………Acoustic Power Labs APL1
82.9………………………..………BSS BLU-BIB & BLU-BOB1
82.8…………………………..……LOXJIE d20
82.4……………………………..…Schiit Modi 2 Multibit (USB In)
82.2………………………………..Schiit Modi 2 Multibit (S/PDIF In)
81.3……..…………………………Nobsound NS-DAC3 Pro
81.0………..………………………SMSL AD18
80.3…………..……………………SMSL Sanskrit 10th (USB Power)
79.9……………..…………………Aoide DAC II
78.2………………..………………ELE EL-D02
77.8…………………..……………Breeze Audio ES9018K2M
77.5……………………..…………ENCORE mDAC
76.7………………………..………Klipsch PowerGate
76.5…………………………..……Micca OriGen G2 (USB In)
76.2……………………………..…Cyrus soundKey
76.0………………………………..Audio-gd NFB-2
74.4…………..……………………Micca OriGen G2 (TOSLINK In)
74.1……………..…………………SMAKN X5
74.0………………..………………Pioneer VSX-LX303
72.6…………………..……………Venture Electronics (Veclan) Odyssey HD
72.0……………………..…………C-Media CM108
71.8………………………..………AudioQuest Dragonfly Black

 

[Zek]

In my opinion there should be no color difference in the SINAD chart.
On what basis are the boundaries between groups (colors) established?
The boundaries are not substantiated by anything and are arbitrarily determined.
This only confuses the users as they can draw the wrong conclusions from them.

 

[pozz]

In my opinion there should be no color difference in the SINAD chart.
On what basis are the boundaries between groups (colors) established?
The boundaries are not substantiated by anything and are arbitrarily determined.
This only confuses the users as they can draw the wrong conclusions from them.

Do you consider the explanatory note below insufficient?

SINAD

1. █ >120dB (>20 bits): Provably inaudible noise and distortion.
2. █ 109dB—119dB (18 bits—20 bits): Well beyond 16-bit (CD) resolution.
3. █ 96dB—108dB (16 bits—18 bits): Meets and exceeds 16-bit (CD) resolution.
4. █ 85dB—95dB (14.3 bits—16 bits): Does not meet 16-bit (CD) resolution.
5. █ <85dB (<14.3 bits): Performance is below the minimum lenient threshold defined in this thread.

• SINAD measurements are made by averaging the R&L channels. The bandwidth is 20Hz—20kHz.
• Keep in mind that performance is physically limited by the noise and distortion of the engineered circuit. The unique limits of each piece of tested hardware can be assessed using the SINAD ratio, which represents the noise and distortion-free operating range in dB.
• One of the simplest ways to gauge SINAD is to compare it to 16-bit CD dynamic range. 1 bit equals 6.02dB, making the maximum dynamic range of CDs 96.3dB (this is without considering the effects of noise-shaping dither in the digital mastering process, which typically detracts 3dB). This means that playback equipment should be capable of a SINAD of at least 96.3dB to ensure that all information of the encoded audio signal is reproduced in its entirety.
  • For perspective, the highest measured SINAD value is approximately 123dB (20.4 bits) for the Audio Precision APx555 analyzer.
• It's also useful to consider SINAD values in terms of dBFS. 0dBFS references the maximum output of a digital signal without clipping. -120dBFS is provably inaudible even without taking into account psychoacoustic masking or equal loudness curves. Research by Louis Fielder from 1981 and 1995 supports this claim.
  • Again, for perspective, please see @RayDunzl's Shoutometer™, @flipflop's thread on audibility and @amirm's article on dynamic range.
• Thanks to @martijn86, @Matias and everyone else who participated in the thread which decided this approach.

 

[boXem]

I know I am coming quite late in the battle, but since the quartile system is abandonned, wouldn't a 3 colors code be more consistent with @flipflop 's thread on audibility?
- above strict limits
- between strict and lenient limits
- below lenient limits
Consistency across the forum would give more weight to the data.

 

[FooYatChong]

Next part.

102.2………………………………Spectra X
102.1………………………………SMSL SU-8 V1 (RCA Out)
101.9………………………………Asus Xonar U7 Mk2
101.7………………………………NuForce DAC80
101.5………………………………Asus STX II
101.4………………………………SMSL Sanskrit 10th (S/PDIF In)
101.4………………………………Chord Mojo
101.4………………………………Holo Audio Cyan DSD (RCA Out)
101.4………………………………iBasso DX120
100.6………………………………Melokin DA9.1 (Min. Headphone Volume)
99.2………………………………..Cambridge DacMagic Plus
98.9………………………………..Essence HDACC II-4K
98.8………………………………..Apple Dongle
98.5………………………………..iBasso DX120
98.4………………………………..Schiit Magni 3
98.1………………………………..Oppo HA-2 SE
97.5………………………………..FX-Audio DAC-X7
97.4………………………………..Massdrop Grace Design SDAC
96.5………………………………..KORG DS-DAC-100
96.4………………………………..Audioengine D3
96.2………………………………..Schiit Jotunheim (AK4490) (XLR Out)
96.1………………………………..Gigabyte Gaming B8
95.9………………………………..Schiit Jotunheim (AK4490) (RCA Out)
94.9………………..………………Schiit Bifrost (AK4490)
94.8…………………..……………SMSL M10 (XLR Out)
94.8……………………..…………Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 (RCA Out)
94.5………………………..………JDS Labs The Element
94.5…………………………..……SMSL M10 (RCA Out)
94.3………………………………..Oppo HA-1 (Variable Output)
94.3……………………………..…Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 (XLR Out)
93.4…..……………………………Musiland MU1
93.4……..…………………………Audirect Beam
93.3………..………………………Parasound Zdac V2
93.3…………..……………………iFi iDSD Black
93.2……………..…………………iFi Nano iDSD Black
92.8………………..………………Allo Boss V1.2 Raspberry Pi
92.5…………………..……………HiFiBerry DAC+ Pro (RCA Out)
92.2……………………..…………Fostex HP-A3 (TOSLINK In)
91.9………………………..………Marantz AV8805 (HDMI In)
91.9…………………………..……Paradigm PW-Link
91.9……………………………..…HTC Dongle
91.7………………………………..HiFiBerry DAC+ Pro (XLR Out)
91.7..………………………………Sonos Connect
91.7…..……………………………Chord Chordette
91.7……..…………………………Fiio K3
91.6………..………………………Yamaha WXA-50
91.5…………..……………………Marantz AV8805 (XLR Out)
91.4……………..…………………iFi Nano iONE
91.3………………..………………Chromecast
91.2…………………..……………Matrix Audio HPA-3U
91.0……………………..…………Audeze Deckard
90.8………………………..………Sabaj Da3
90.7…………………………..……HIDIZS Sonata HD Mk2
90.5……………………………..…LH Labs Go2Pro Infinity
90.3………………………………..Creative SoundBlaster X-FI HD
89.9…..……………………………Sony PHA-1
89.8……..…………………………SMSL iDEA

@pozz This one is done. Couldn't find the Gigabyte Gaming B8.

 

[pozz]

I know I am coming quite late in the battle, but since the quartile system is abandonned, wouldn't a 3 colors code be more consistent with @flipflop 's thread on audibility?
- above strict limits
- between strict and lenient limits
- below lenient limits
Consistency across the forum would give more weight to the data.

Right, although CD quality is generally used as a baseline. Also, between strict and lenient limits is a 35dB range—which is frankly massive.

The current SINAD scale splits "between strict and lenient limits" into three more or less equal segments.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Oh, sorry, I got it wrong then. I understood "probably" as in not proven yet. Thanks for the correction.

Yes but "probably" has nothing to do with proof, it just means "more likely than not".

 

[boXem]

Right, although CD quality is generally used as a baseline. Also, between strict and lenient limits is a 35dB range—which is frankly massive.

The current SINAD scale splits "between strict and lenient limits" into three more or less equal segments.

You are right, at the end most of the tested gear would be the same color, and the table would loose in readability.
Keep going guys, your work is fantastic.

 

[pozz]

So I've spent the early part of the day deciding the look of the charts/links. They look like this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurement-comparison-charts.8246/post-207205

I then got sidetracked by a suggestion @amirm made, which was to add a geometric mean (let's call it geomean for short) to each chart. For fun I also calculated the absolute deviation from the geomean (let's call it a GMAD). It's an indication of how far on average the measured values are from the geomean on either the positive or negative side.

If we say that the dataset is a good representation of what's available on the market and you decide to buy a random piece of hardware, you're likely to fall within the GMAD range. How likely are you to fall within that range, i.e., what's the probability? No idea. That's beyond me to calculate.

Anyway, for DACs the geomean/GMAD for SINAD is 95dB/11dB or 15.8 bits/1.8 bits. It's interesting because it shows the tendency is to be around, but slightly below, 16-bit CD resolution. Which means that it was a good call to base the SINAD charts (at least for DACs) on CD resolution, but also that the industry has moved forward by about 12dB if we're to judge by @LTig's 83dB SINAD measurement of his 1991 Arcam Black Box 3 Mk1.

Back to the linking.

 

[amirm]

So I've spent the early part of the day deciding the look of the charts/links. They look like this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurement-comparison-charts.8246/post-207205

Thanks for all the work. I have a hard time with the low contrast of this orange color:

Am I the only one?

 

[Johnb]

Thanks for all the work. I have a hard time with the low contrast of this orange color:

View attachment 32886

Am I the only one?

me too

 

[pozz]

I'll adjust the RGB values when I get a chance, and maybe get them closer to the charts as well.