Is lossy outdated in 2019 & onwards?

[Julf]

Is streaming 16 bit FLAC inefficient encoding?

Pretty much, yes, considering high-bitrate AAC or Ogg Vorbis is audibly transparent except for a few near-pathological edge cases, but I can live with it.

And isn't this a red herring compared to the bandwidth of video streaming?

It is and it isn't. The major video streaming services (netflix, youtube etc) have their own content distribution networks that don't use the common Internet backbone.

 

[edechamps]

And isn't this a red herring compared to the bandwidth of video streaming?

When you're listening to a stream on a mobile phone in an area with poor signal, coding efficiency can be the difference between the stream working or not. It can also make a difference on your bill if you don't have unlimited data.

 

[garbulky]

Your local bandwidth may seem cheap to you, but wasting bandwidth causes a lot of load on the backbone networks and servers - that costs not only money, but a lot of power/energy too.

I wager that Netflix and video streaming jams up way more data than lossless audio. In terms of power and energy, with the energy efficiency of electronics these days I doubt it's going to put a high enough load simply due to a switch in lossless. Besides, what about people listening to lossless on their blu rays and CD's at home?

 

[Julf]

I wager that Netflix and video streaming jams up way more data than lossless audio.

As I wrote, the major video streaming services (netflix, youtube etc) have their own content distribution networks that don't use the common Internet backbone.

In terms of power and energy, with the energy efficiency of electronics these days I doubt it's going to put a high enough load simply due to a switch in lossless. Besides, what about people listening to lossless on their blu rays and CD's at home?

Have you actually looked at the power consumption of data centres and Internet exchange points ("the cloud")? People listening to lossless at home don't use tens of intermediary links and routers (where the power consumption is dependent on the amount of data).

 

[Thomas savage]

My garage got flooded because you all insisted on streaming lossless..

The environmentally responsible thing to do is to listen to lousy lossy.

 

[garbulky]

As I wrote, the major video streaming services (netflix, youtube etc) have their own content distribution networks that don't use the common Internet backbone.



Have you actually looked at the power consumption of data centres and Internet exchange points ("the cloud")? People listening to lossless at home don't use tens of intermediary links and routers (where the power consumption is dependent on the amount of data).

Interesting concept that to use more data is to use more power. I have little experience in this matter. Though I find myself not at all concerned. As technology grows more data will be consumed. It appears some companies are trying to mitigate their large energy draws. Maybe that will be a growing trend.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/4/17197342/google-renewable-energy-climate-change

 

[Julf]

Also https://data-economy.com/data-centres-world-will-consume-1-5-earths-power-2025/

 

[watchnerd]

It is and it isn't. The major video streaming services (netflix, youtube etc) have their own content distribution networks that don't use the common Internet backbone.

Do you think Tidal doesn't use a CDN?

 

[Julf]

Do you think Tidal doesn't use a CDN?

I have no idea. You tell me - do they, and which one in that case?

 

[watchnerd]

I have no idea. You tell me - do they, and which one in that case?

Haven't looked into it. I don't really care if they do, the service works flawlessly for me.

 

[Julf]

the service works flawlessly for me.

That wasn't quite the point.

 

[watchnerd]

That wasn't quite the point.

Quick Googling seems to indicate Akamai.

 

[Julf]

Quick Googling seems to indicate Akamai.

Thanks. My own quick googling didn't bring up anything. I do have a couple of friends at Akamai, will have to ask.

 

[Sal1950]

All this moaning over wasting bandwidth, causing jamming issues, etc; is just a waste of this websites space..
The only thing it highlights is that the network backbone needs to grow exponentially.
The pitiful minor uses we discuss will be a anthill compared to the Everest of the future..

My garage got flooded because you all insisted on streaming lossless..
The environmentally responsible thing to do is to listen to lousy lossy.

Your garage flooded because you got drunk and forget to shut off the water in the slop sink after rinsing out the car wash bucket.

 

[Purpletrees]

If it is so easy then what is so difficult in providing an ABX log? There are 3 threads recently active about lossy codecs producing audible difference:

• Fighter Beat looped (killer sample)
• Something really terrible is happening when encoding 20Hz sine wave
• Killer sample for FDK AAC (easily ABX-able in both VBR and CBR at max quality)

I don't see any rudeness there (maybe I'm thick-skinned). But then again, the OP doesn't think it's beneath him to do an ABX test.

I did go read the listening tests samples on HA where i show industrial/metal struggling.

Sunn O)))

Killer sample - Dead body collection, Merzbow, The Haters

LOL, HA removed my industrial samples were it needed above 160kbps to sound great. What a joke i show exotic music that stresses them they hide behind that not music instead of admitting lossy can't cover all content?. Your seriously asking for proof when your buds removed my samples because it hurt there weak ego's, that trolling there dude.

 

[Paianis]

Opus VBR 160kb/s is good enough for listening. Even for 44.1/88.2kHz source material resampled to 48kHz with SoX. However, I keep and copy everything on my local storage at the original quality for convenience.

 

[Julf]

LOL, HA removed my industrial samples were it needed above 160kbps to sound great. What a joke i show exotic music that stresses them they hide behind that not music instead of admitting lossy can't cover all content?. Your seriously asking for proof when your buds removed my samples because it hurt there weak ego's, that trolling there dude.

I am sure they had a reason to remove the samples. Any links/pointers to where you posted them?

 

[amirm]

If it is so easy then what is so difficult in providing an ABX log?

Here is mine as an answer to a challenge a few years ago:

----

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/19 19:45:33

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44_01.mp3

19:45:33 : Test started.
19:46:21 : 01/01 50.0%
19:46:35 : 02/02 25.0%
19:46:49 : 02/03 50.0%
19:47:03 : 03/04 31.3%
19:47:13 : 04/05 18.8%
19:47:27 : 05/06 10.9%
19:47:38 : 06/07 6.3%
19:47:46 : 07/08 3.5%
19:48:01 : 08/09 2.0%
19:48:19 : 09/10 1.1%
19:48:31 : 10/11 0.6%
19:48:45 : 11/12 0.3%
19:48:58 : 12/13 0.2%
19:49:11 : 13/14 0.1%
19:49:28 : 14/15 0.0%
19:49:52 : 15/16 0.0%
19:49:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)

----

I have done others, all without picking any special files myself. MP3 is not hard. AAC is another matter.

 

[amirm]

I am sure they had a reason to remove the samples. Any links/pointers to where you posted them?

I give you an example of their over the line zeal. One of their diehard members challenged me on transparency of MP3 on an audio forum (not HA). I told him that it could not achieve such. He said it would in the case of LAME MP3 encoder. I showed him the graph from HA forum's own Wiki saying otherwise:

As you see, it shows that it never achieves 100% quality no matter how high you go in bit rate.

The poster storms away, goes to HA forum asking for help. You can read the saga here: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,90464.0.html

Their final answer? Delete the graph from the wiki!

The graph is correct and should have been left as is.

There is a fine line in these arguments where we look like crooks instead of providing the science. I want to make darn sure we never cross it as they did there....

 

[Julf]

I give you an example of their over the line zeal.

That is a very interesting thread. I suggest everyone on this forum read the whole thread.