Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[LuckyLuke575]

The OP asked why any one would bother with vinyl playback when everything is available on streaming. My answer is because for many older titles the vinyl versions sound not only different but better because of both a fresher analog source and different styles of mastering. I thought by posting an example of the differences the OP could decide if it was something he would like to pursue. I have no illusions about the sound quality of vinyl vs digital all things being equal. The problem with many digital versions of old music is that both the original master tapes and the original machines were often worn out before the music ever got transferred to digital. It appears to me (by ABX testing) that a good vinyl pressing made from a fresh analog source will often times sound better than an old worn out analog source transferred to digital despite vinyls limitations. The problem is compounded when the old music is then "remastered" to both try to compensate for the lost information and to sound as loud as every other song being steamed. I wish there was a way to measure "musical information density" on a recording so we could objectively compare recording quality instead of just "that sounds better".

I've observed this often even between digital recordings of the same music, for example between the recording of a song played at a live concert from a fan uploaded soundboard tape transfered to flac vs the same song that got released commercially on a CD / audio streaming. The fan version totally blows the streaming / CD version out of the water, no comparison.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

Thank you, that's more entertaining than the more usual "Hipster" accusation (even if it amounts to the same thing haha!).

Maybe LARPing a 1960's radio disk jockey

 

[MattHooper]

Thank you, that's more entertaining than the more usual "Hipster" accusation (even if it amounts to the same thing haha!).

Yeah the "hipster" put down.

People who are not interested a certain pursuit, especially if they have something against it, are typically very poor at psychoanalyzing why other people like it. They tend to project only the most superficial, cynical or desparaging motivations. Makes them feel better about their own choices.

 

[Zerimas]

Yeah the "hipster" put down.

People who are not interested a certain pursuit, especially if they have something against it, are typically very poor at psychoanalyzing why other people like it. They tend to project only the most superficial, cynical or desparaging motivations. Makes them feel better about their own choices.

I dunno. Unrelated to turntables, but I really feel like a lot of people do have the most "superficial, cynical or desparaging motivations" of motivations. Like do you really think people buying bitcoin actually care about "banking the unbanked", "censorship resistant money" or any of that stuff? No, they want Lambos. That's just one example. I could come up with a bunch of others if I felt like it. People are really awful.

 

[MattHooper]

I dunno. Unrelated to turntables, but I really feel like a lot of people do have the most "superficial, cynical or desparaging motivations" of motivations. Like do you really think people buying bitcoin actually care about "banking the unbanked", "censorship resistant money" or any of that stuff? No, they want Lambos. That's just one example. I could come up with a bunch of others if I felt like it. People are really awful.

Well, some of this comes down to a disconnect in attitudes and beliefs, I suppose.

I don't think "people are really awful." In fact, I can't think of one single person I know who I'd ever deem "awful."

Some people are by nature more cynical it seems, especially in terms of motivations of other people. Apparently studies of people who buy in to conspiracy theories rate very high on the cynicism/distrust of motivations of other people scale. Which makes sense.

As a matter of fact at our last family Christmas party, an acquaintance was there who'd joined us over the years. He was always very friendly, but it came out in conversation that he was a 9/11 "truther." It dropped our collective jaws. He tried to make the case for the conspiracy and so I said:
I wonder if you've thought through the implications of this giant conspiracy. What would have to happen is that someone had an idea to murder thousands of their fellow citizens, and then convey this idea to other people. In fact, enough people to be able to create this rather incredible event.
And no one, not one person who upon hearing the plan of murdering thousands of Americans, balked at the idea and said "Are you crazy?" and told anyone about this plan? Nope...everyone had to say essentially "Murder thousand of my fellow Americans? I'm on board!"

I suggested this seemed rather implausible.

His response: "Well, sorry but I don't think so. We human beings are pretty nasty. People can be really awful you know..."

There would be no meeting of the minds on this one. But it made me think back to our many conversations and I realized how often he'd had a cynical take on government, people's motivations etc, and suddenly it sort of made sense he became a truther.

 

[Zerimas]

Well, some of this comes down to a disconnect in attitudes and beliefs, I suppose.

I don't think "people are really awful." In fact, I can't think of one single person I know who I'd ever deem "awful."

Some people are by nature more cynical it seems, especially in terms of motivations of other people. Apparently studies of people who buy in to conspiracy theories rate very high on the cynicism/distrust of motivations of other people scale. Which makes sense.

As a matter of fact at our last family Christmas party, an acquaintance was there who'd joined us over the years. He was always very friendly, but it came out in conversation that he was a 9/11 "truther." It dropped our collective jaws. He tried to make the case for the conspiracy and so I said:
I wonder if you've thought through the implications of this giant conspiracy. What would have to happen is that someone had an idea to murder thousands of their fellow citizens, and then convey this idea to other people. In fact, enough people to be able to create this rather incredible event.
And no one, not one person who upon hearing the plan of murdering thousands of Americans, balked at the idea and said "Are you crazy?" and told anyone about this plan? Nope...everyone had to say essentially "Murder thousand of my fellow Americans? I'm on board!"

I suggested this seemed rather implausible.

His response: "Well, sorry but I don't think so. We human beings are pretty nasty. People can be really awful you know..."

There would be no meeting of the minds on this one. But it made me think back to our many conversations and I realized how often he'd had a cynical take on government, people's motivations etc, and suddenly it sort of made sense he became a truther.

I dunno. Maybe it is just me. Around 2 months ago I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (which apparently none of the numerous psychologists and psychiatrists I saw over the years while at university picked up on). That might have something to do with it.

I'm also kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere and spend too much time on the internet. Reading the internet really makes question the moral worth of most people. I dunno. This place is really nice. Everyone is reasonable and friendly. It's great.

 

[Zog]

I suggested this seemed rather implausible.
His response: "Well, sorry but I don't think so. We human beings are pretty nasty. People can be really awful you know..."
There would be no meeting of the minds on this one.

Wow, that's quite a story! Two angles. One, that he actually believes it. That is strange. But my contribution to the world of human understanding is that people believe what they want to believe. Two, people being vile. Pick your genocide. I think there is good and bad in all of us - our leaders have what it takes to bring out the bad in us.

 

[Zog]

I dunno. Maybe it is just me. Around 2 months ago I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (which apparently none of the numerous psychologists and psychiatrists I saw over the years while at university picked up on). That might have something to do with it.

I'm also kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere and spend too much time on the internet. Reading the internet really makes question the moral worth of most people. I dunno. This place is really nice. Everyone is reasonable and friendly. It's great.

I too have been misdiagnosed by the medical profession. It probably happens quite a lot. I don't mind that - as one doctor explained to me "He's not a magician!" What I do mind is doctors making a diagnosis on inadequate information. If the diagnosis is, say, 90% certain they should say that. A recent example: I had some itching on my legs (it turned out to be excema). I told the GP I had been in contact with a person with Scabies. That was all he needed to diagnose me with scabies. Unsurprisingly his potions did not work. As an aside the excema went away as soon as I started a ketogenic diet.
I love internet and also spend too much time on it. I follow all my hobbies, Music, Hi-Fi, Gaming (Chess, Bridge, Backgammon, Counterstrike), History, Nutrition, Astronomy, Sport (Football and Rugby), Single Malts. I have made a few friends via Hi-Fi Forums and have had stay-overs with virtual strangers! If you ever go to NZ - stop by! If you think you are isolated then I think I can top that - While it is true we do have electricity and running water, it is but a short boat ride to the edge of the earth.

 

[Zerimas]

I too have been misdiagnosed by the medical profession. It probably happens quite a lot. I don't mind that - as one doctor explained to me "He's not a magician!" What I do mind is doctors making a diagnosis on inadequate information. If the diagnosis is, say, 90% certain they should say that. A recent example: I had some itching on my legs (it turned out to be excema). I told the GP I had been in contact with a person with Scabies. That was all he needed to diagnose me with scabies. Unsurprisingly his potions did not work. As an aside the excema went away as soon as I started a ketogenic diet.
I love internet and also spend too much time on it. I follow all my hobbies, Music, Hi-Fi, Gaming (Chess, Bridge, Backgammon, Counterstrike), History, Nutrition, Astronomy, Sport (Football and Rugby), Single Malts. I have made a few friends via Hi-Fi Forums and have had stay-overs with virtual strangers! If you ever go to NZ - stop by! If you think you are isolated then I think I can top that - While it is true we do have electricity and running water, it is but a short boat ride to the edge of the earth.

I know they aren't magicians. It is still pretty frustrating though. For years and years I've been getting treatment. It wasn't as effective as it could be because my diagnosis wasn't complete.

I think my uncle bought a motorcycle and drove around NZ in what was probably around 1980. I hear the weather there is nice. Ontario has awful weather. It is quite cold in the winter and it is currently super hot. I mean there are worse places, but it isn't great.

 

[Xulonn]

I'm no longer interested in vinyl due to my low tolerance for surface noise, and my preference for the black background of digital audio. Also, I enjoyed five decades of handling first, vinyl records, then CDs (plus reel-to-reel tape for "mixes" at home and cassette tapes primarily for use in my car). No more, thank you!

Some people seem to find pleasure in handling physical vintage (or vintage-style) recorded media such as records, tapes and CDs. I assume that even the act of setting the stylus down carefully in the space between tracks is enjoyable by some. (Music on USB flash drives doesn't seem to evoke the same pleasurable emotions - although I still use that method for my car.)

Regarding turntables and vinyl in today's audio market, I found this comment in a 2018 Stereophile discussion interesting...

Similarly, it's a mistake to think that the vinyl resurgence today is all about better sound and influence from those of us who know good audio. The numbers are driven by a film industry that's been putting a turntable in every cool home for the last 10+ years...

TV also can feature vinyl. I do not watch TV per se, but occasionally download and binge-watch a TV series. I really enjoyed "Bosch" - the story of a detective who bought a nice house in the Hollywood hills with its glass walls overlooking LA. The backstory was that he earned a significant amount of money by consulting on a movie about one of his cases and bouthe milion dollar plus house with the proceeds - a plausible explanation. His stereo is vintage, and prominently featured in the storyline, as is his love of vinyl and jazz, including one of my favorite artists, saxophone player Art Pepper. (I saw Art Pepper jam with Joe Farrell live in 1979 at Pasquale's - a Malibu Beach jazz club owned by bass player Pat Senatore - who is still alive and playing jazz at age 83 - but that's another long story.) Harry's Bosch's clearly featured stereo consisted of a turntable (Marantz 6300TT?), McIntosh MX110 Tuner/preamp, McIntosh 240 stereo tube amplifier, and a pair of Ohm Walsh omni-directional speakers. The series also included made a sub-story based on Harry Bosch's efforts to introduce his teen-age daughter - who lived with his ex-wife - to vinyl. If you are an audiophile and like film-noir style detective stories, this is a good series.

Now, at age 77, for listening to music and playing with audio components and systems, I thoroughly enjoy modern digital audio technology. A lot of listening today relies on the random access feature of digital audio technology via playlists - a method I never use. Rather, I almost always listen to my collection of music via random playing of directories and sub-directories (except, of course, for symphonies and other recordings designed to be listened to in sequence.

My digital music collection on my NAS is as organised as my previous collections of first vinyl, then CD, but digital music is much easier to access and play with a headless player software app. I currently use Daphile, a robust and mature free Linux-based self-booting app that I can control from a browser on any network-connected computer or smart device by simply entering its IP address.

 

[Zerimas]

I'm no longer interested in vinyl due to my low tolerance for surface noise, and my preference for the black background of digital audio. Also, I enjoyed five decades of handling first, vinyl records, then CDs (plus reel-to-reel tape for "mixes" at home and cassette tapes primarily for use in my car). No more, thank you!

Some people seem to find pleasure in handling physical vintage (or vintage-style) recorded media such as records, tapes and CDs. I assume that even the act of setting the stylus down carefully in the space between tracks is enjoyable by some. (Music on USB flash drives doesn't seem to evoke the same pleasurable emotions - although I still use that method for my car.)

Regarding turntables and vinyl in today's audio market, I found this comment in a 2018 Stereophile discussion interesting...



TV also can feature vinyl. I do not watch TV per se, but occasionally download and binge-watch a TV series. I really enjoyed "Bosch" - the story of a detective who bought a nice house in the Hollywood hills with its glass walls overlooking LA. The backstory was that he earned a significant amount of money by consulting on a movie about one of his cases and bouthe milion dollar plus house with the proceeds - a plausible explanation. His stereo is vintage, and prominently featured in the storyline, as is his love of vinyl and jazz, including one of my favorite artists, saxophone player Art Pepper. (I saw Art Pepper jam with Joe Farrell live in 1979 at Pasquale's - a Malibu Beach jazz club owned by bass player Pat Senatore - who is still alive and playing jazz at age 83 - but that's another long story.) Harry's Bosch's clearly featured stereo consisted of a turntable (Marantz 6300TT?), McIntosh MX110 Tuner/preamp, McIntosh 240 stereo tube amplifier, and a pair of Ohm Walsh omni-directional speakers. The series also included made a sub-story based on Harry Bosch's efforts to introduce his teen-age daughter - who lived with his ex-wife - to vinyl. If you are an audiophile and like film-noir style detective stories, this is a good series.

Now, at age 77, for listening to music and playing with audio components and systems, I thoroughly enjoy modern digital audio technology. A lot of listening today relies on the random access feature of digital audio technology via playlists - a method I never use. Rather, I almost always listen to my collection of music via random playing of directories and sub-directories (except, of course, for symphonies and other recordings designed to be listened to in sequence.

My digital music collection on my NAS is as organised as my previous collections of first vinyl, then CD, but digital music is much easier to access and play with a headless player software app. I currently use Daphile, a robust and mature free Linux-based self-booting app that I can control from a browser on any network-connected computer or smart device by simply entering its IP address.

I've actually never heard of Daphile as a distro (I haven't looked into it that much). I've wanted to build a network streaming thing for a long time, but only in recent years has it become super accessible and cheap. I was thinking about doing so in 2009 or 2010. Back then the cheapest option would have been repurposing an old computer. Not very elegant. Now we have things like the Raspberry Pi and a bunch of other options for cheap, small, low power consumption computers. Back then it was certainly possible to do something like NAS, but it would have required basically a computer with a bunch hard drives in it (maybe a RAID controller too) along with the knowledge to perform the relevant setup. Now commercial NAS devices are everywhere. Hell, you can just plug an external hard drive into any decent router and BAM—instant NAS.

 

[MattHooper]

Regarding turntables and vinyl in today's audio market, I found this comment in a 2018 Stereophile discussion interesting...



TV also can feature vinyl. I do not watch TV per se, but occasionally download and binge-watch a TV series. I really enjoyed "Bosch" - the story of a detective who bought a nice house in the Hollywood hills with its glass walls overlooking LA. The backstory was that he earned a significant amount of money by consulting on a movie about one of his cases and bouthe milion dollar plus house with the proceeds - a plausible explanation. His stereo is vintage, and prominently featured in the storyline, as is his love of vinyl and jazz, including one of my favorite artists, saxophone player Art Pepper. (I saw Art Pepper jam with Joe Farrell live in 1979 at Pasquale's - a Malibu Beach jazz club owned by bass player Pat Senatore - who is still alive and playing jazz at age 83 - but that's another long story.) Harry's Bosch's clearly featured stereo consisted of a turntable (Marantz 6300TT?), McIntosh MX110 Tuner/preamp, McIntosh 240 stereo tube amplifier, and a pair of Ohm Walsh omni-directional speakers. The series also included made a sub-story based on Harry Bosch's efforts to introduce his teen-age daughter - who lived with his ex-wife - to vinyl. If you are an audiophile and like film-noir style detective stories, this is a good series.

Now, at age 77, for listening to music and playing with audio components and systems, I thoroughly enjoy modern digital audio technology. A lot of listening today relies on the random access feature of digital audio technology via playlists - a method I never use. Rather, I almost always listen to my collection of music via random playing of directories and sub-directories (except, of course, for symphonies and other recordings designed to be listened to in sequence.

My digital music collection on my NAS is as organised as my previous collections of first vinyl, then CD, but digital music is much easier to access and play with a headless player software app. I currently use Daphile, a robust and mature free Linux-based self-booting app that I can control from a browser on any network-connected computer or smart device by simply entering its IP address.

Interesting. I don't watch TV shows, but I happen to be reading my first Harry Bosch novel. Quite good. Won't get me interested in the TV series though. TV just doesn't capture my interest (though I'm a huge movie junkie).

As for the explanation for vinyl's popularity, the most common mistake made is in trying to narrow down why people buy vinyl to some single factor.
The reasons people are spinning vinyl vary from person to person, from the kid who buys it because it looks cool and won't even open the LP, to the person who thinks it sounds worse than digital but likes the physical experience, to the the obsessive audiophile with an expensive analog rig thinking "it's all about the sound" and everything in between.

 

[Wombat]

Interesting. I don't watch TV shows, but I happen to be reading my first Harry Bosch novel. Quite good. Won't get me interested in the TV series though. TV just doesn't capture my interest (though I'm a huge movie junkie).

As for the explanation for vinyl's popularity, the most common mistake made is in trying to narrow down why people buy vinyl to some single factor.
The reasons people are spinning vinyl vary from person to person, from the kid who buys it because it looks cool and won't even open the LP, to the person who thinks it sounds worse than digital but likes the physical experience, to the the obsessive audiophile with an expensive analog rig thinking "it's all about the sound" and everything in between.

Remember Yo-Yos, Hula-hoops, Pet Rocks? Another fad, albeit an expensive one.

 

[levimax]

Remember Yo-Yos, Hula-hoops, Pet Rocks? Another fad, albeit an expensive one.

Fad: an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, especially one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze.

Records have been in use for over 100 years so I don't think "fad" fits. A technology does not endure for over a century unless it offers utility to it's users.

 

[Wombat]

Fad: an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, especially one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze.

Records have been in use for over 100 years so I don't think "fad" fits. A technology does not endure for over a century unless it offers utility to it's users.

A resurgence. A feature of fads. Most(nearly all) experienced vinyl users dumped it when the convenient and technically better CD arrived. Many had already shunned it when the Compact Cassette appeared.

8-track was a fad for a while. Now Compact Cassettes and reel to reel are. Ghettoblasters, anyone?

 

[watchnerd]

TV also can feature vinyl. I do not watch TV per se, but occasionally download and binge-watch a TV series.

I'm guilty of owning a "celebrity" turntable, the Michell Gyro SE.

Featured in the movie "Loopers":

Steve Jobs also apparently owned one when he was youngish:

 

[restorer-john]

I'm guilty of owning a "celebrity" turntable, the Michell Gyro SE.

They are very pretty. JA Michell's TTs were absolute art.

I owned an absolutely pristine Focus One with an SME-3009II on it. It was the worst testing turntable in terms of W&F I have ever owned and I promptly sold it. Disappointing, as I'd always wanted one.

Sure, it was gorgeous, especially with the maroon suede mat and the spun aluminium feet/spring pods etc, but it was comprehensively destroyed by a mid range Technics belt drive in terms of W&F.

I have some pics of it someplace if anyone wants to see.

To me, dead-on balls-accurate speed is number one. Wow and Flutter must also be very low. Resistance to load must be excellent. The beautiful turntables of today just don't get those parameters right.

 

[watchnerd]

They are very pretty. JA Michell's TTs were absolute art.

I owned an absolutely pristine Focus One with an SME-3009II on it. It was the worst testing turntable in terms of W&F I have ever owned and I promptly sold it. Disappointing, as I'd always wanted one.

Sure, it was gorgeous, especially with the maroon suede mat and the spun aluminium feet/spring pods etc, but it was comprehensively destroyed by a mid range Technics belt drive in terms of W&F.

I have some pics of it someplace if anyone wants to see.

To me, dead-on balls-accurate speed is number one. Wow and Flutter must also be very low. Resistance to load must be excellent. The beautiful turntables of today just don't get those parameters right.

Red felt sounds pimped!

 

[BDWoody]

I'm no longer interested in vinyl due to my low tolerance for surface noise, and my preference for the black background of digital audio. Also, I enjoyed five decades of handling first, vinyl records, then CDs (plus reel-to-reel tape for "mixes" at home and cassette tapes primarily for use in my car). No more, thank you!

Some people seem to find pleasure in handling physical vintage (or vintage-style) recorded media such as records, tapes and CDs. I assume that even the act of setting the stylus down carefully in the space between tracks is enjoyable by some. (Music on USB flash drives doesn't seem to evoke the same pleasurable emotions - although I still use that method for my car.)

Regarding turntables and vinyl in today's audio market, I found this comment in a 2018 Stereophile discussion interesting...



TV also can feature vinyl. I do not watch TV per se, but occasionally download and binge-watch a TV series. I really enjoyed "Bosch" - the story of a detective who bought a nice house in the Hollywood hills with its glass walls overlooking LA. The backstory was that he earned a significant amount of money by consulting on a movie about one of his cases and bouthe milion dollar plus house with the proceeds - a plausible explanation. His stereo is vintage, and prominently featured in the storyline, as is his love of vinyl and jazz, including one of my favorite artists, saxophone player Art Pepper. (I saw Art Pepper jam with Joe Farrell live in 1979 at Pasquale's - a Malibu Beach jazz club owned by bass player Pat Senatore - who is still alive and playing jazz at age 83 - but that's another long story.) Harry's Bosch's clearly featured stereo consisted of a turntable (Marantz 6300TT?), McIntosh MX110 Tuner/preamp, McIntosh 240 stereo tube amplifier, and a pair of Ohm Walsh omni-directional speakers. The series also included made a sub-story based on Harry Bosch's efforts to introduce his teen-age daughter - who lived with his ex-wife - to vinyl. If you are an audiophile and like film-noir style detective stories, this is a good series.

Now, at age 77, for listening to music and playing with audio components and systems, I thoroughly enjoy modern digital audio technology. A lot of listening today relies on the random access feature of digital audio technology via playlists - a method I never use. Rather, I almost always listen to my collection of music via random playing of directories and sub-directories (except, of course, for symphonies and other recordings designed to be listened to in sequence.

My digital music collection on my NAS is as organised as my previous collections of first vinyl, then CD, but digital music is much easier to access and play with a headless player software app. I currently use Daphile, a robust and mature free Linux-based self-booting app that I can control from a browser on any network-connected computer or smart device by simply entering its IP address.

I enjoy my turntable and records, but for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality or impressing anyone... Most of the time I am listening to generated streams, or bounce around from click to click because its so easy and awesome, but I find that I almost never sit down and listen to a full 'cd/album'

Except when I put a record on. Then, it's basically a commitment to take the required time to just sit and listen to the music. I know a CD or more mental discipline or whatever could also work, but this works for me.

It could also be, that as someone who grew up in the 70's, college in the 80's... that the selection of music that I directly identify with from car backseats, a college party where 'Brothers in Arms' played all night on repeat when we were all too wasted to get up off the floor of the dorm and turn it off for hours, 'Rush' playing at my friends house as we tried to come up with other 3 person rock bands, etc. All of that, for me, is just more closely tied to the 'vinyl experience,' and it's honestly no more than it just being fun to put on a record and play it, and listen to it.

It's therapeutic for me...

It's in no way better than digital in terms of any meaningful measurements though, and miles behind in convenience, no doubt...I'm not busy kidding myself.

 

[BDWoody]

They are very pretty. JA Michell's TTs were absolute art.

I owned an absolutely pristine Focus One with an SME-3009II on it. It was the worst testing turntable in terms of W&F I have ever owned and I promptly sold it. Disappointing, as I'd always wanted one.

Sure, it was gorgeous, especially with the maroon suede mat and the spun aluminium feet/spring pods etc, but it was comprehensively destroyed by a mid range Technics belt drive in terms of W&F.

I have some pics of it someplace if anyone wants to see.

To me, dead-on balls-accurate speed is number one. Wow and Flutter must also be very low. Resistance to load must be excellent. The beautiful turntables of today just don't get those parameters right.

Love to see it. Here's my old Kenwood I was talking about the other day. Getting ready to set it up in my new place...finally...