Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[suttondesign]

i started this thread b/c i was offered a chance to be first in my market to offer the dutch. i do not try to stock passive speakers or compete in that saturated market. i am trying to innovate in a new market, with new kinds of buyers. in austin, that is tech people, not traditional velvet quilted smoking jacket audiophiles with spinning vinyl. it is also me. i love simplification through digital. i bought a sony cdp-101 in 1983 when i was 18 and never looked back. currently, my whole rig is concealed in a closet and controlled with IR via relays, and the fewer black boxes i have in there, the happier i am.

btw, my linkwitz orions, now 12 years old, would be priced at least as much as the dutch 8c when amps and external crossover are added in. they are fantastic, but big, and the amps run hot hot hot.

i reached out to keith before picking up this line, and it is clear he is passionate and sincere. it is not just profit. it is a happy mix of profit and passion, which is why people will buy from people like keith - and me too, i hope. to the same point, i love writing appeal briefs, and i am passionate about my legal writing, but i also expect to be paid for the passion i bring to my work. i “sell” that passion, and my clients are willing buyers. my product speaks for itself.

i hope the same will be true for the dutch speakers. btw, the margins are not what one forum member suggested, and the process of properly demonstrating them and helping a customer with them will take real time, experience, and salesmanship which the margin, such as it is, covers just about right. i personally would never consider selling $100,000 wilsons because i don’t have any passion for them, but then, wilson would not want me selling their speakers anyhow. i am sympatico with dutch and hope to spread the word and the new variety of product.

 

[suttondesign]

I was playing generous games on component cost and allowing manufacturer to importer/retailer as one leap. There's no importer and distributor surely with these D&Ds.

Tell me, where does the money go and is there a value proposition at all?

there is a US distributor, HQ in florida. he is setting up dealers in regions. the margins are just workable, not great, for the dealers. acquisition cost is high. that is why i wanted some reactions on the forum.

 

[restorer-john]

We hope that D&D will be around longer than NHT was. Enthusiasm about the 8Cs in the pro world is promising.

Absolutely. The more pros that buy them, the greater the likelihood they will survive and prosper.

 

[JJB70]

Something that surprises me is that we don't see more active digital stereo speaker pairs aimed at the mainstream market and price points. There are a few and Yamaha made a reasonably priced pair with good functionality but it mostly seems to be about either Sonos type speakers and soundbars, or passive speakers.

 

[Thomas savage]

The sound @Dialectic gets in his sub optimal room with the 8c simply would not be possible with many other speaker systems ..

Few years ago not possible at all.

How's this a bad thing ? I don't get it.

If you add the BACCH system he uses that so many seem to take issue with as well, you get a more rewarding listening experience in the space. It's quite remarkable and forward looking setup.

 

[JJB70]

But they aren't. Consider, for example, one manufacturer's recent, tiny "Tune Tot."

Indeed, in higher end audio in particular there is often a complete disconnect between SQ, build quality and price. However for £9k there is no shortage of options to get a terrific system which will sound fantastic by any standard.

 

[Wombat]

Some everyday perspective.

Same price, Down Under:

https://www.kia.com/au/cars/rio/features.html

 

[Sal1950]

However for £9k there is no shortage of options to get a terrific system which will sound fantastic by any standard.

Absolutely, and you don't have to spend 9k to get it. There are many ways to put together fantastic sounding systems at all levels of cost. With the use of either some knowledge/experience or trusted guidance, world class sound is not something that just appeared on the market last year.

 

[Wombat]

That is a heart warming story, but he would be enjoying better sound quality if he sold it and bought a pair of 8Cs.
Keith

That is a bit naff, Keith.

 

[restorer-john]

Some everyday perspective.

Same price, Down Under:

https://www.kia.com/au/cars/rio/features.html

That's a good looking car. Kia have some gorgeous vehicles thanks to that BMW or was it Audi designer they poached?

The stinger is absolutely gorgeous in the flesh and our police are using them as pursuit vehicles in Qld and a few other states:

A local police officer I spoke to loves them and reckons they go like a cut snake.

 

[JJB70]

The Kia Stinger is an excellent car. Their Niro EV is also a bit of a game changer for electric cars in making a very practical and good performing car with long range available at a price point within reach of typical new car buyers (along with the Kona EV from sister company Hyundai).

 

[solderdude]

Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

Most likely with a well given demo the speakers should sell themselves to those with cash to spend and who appreciate the delivered sound quality.

I guess this applies to almost anything sold in stores that demo items.

 

[PierreV]

i hope the same will be true for the dutch speakers. btw, the margins are not what one forum member suggested, and the process of properly demonstrating them and helping a customer with them will take real time, experience, and salesmanship which the margin, such as it is, covers just about right.

Since I was the one to refer to a 50% margin, I think I should comment on this. I am a passion-driven, business-minded person myself and I do buy from my local resellers as much as possible, happily paying their margin on most things but I also keep an eye on their inventory clearance sales where they may or may not turn a profit. I discussed the issue with them in a couple of cases and they were happy to free up some working capital.
Given all their constraints, stocking, demoing in a brick and mortar place, etc... I am perfectly OK with them having a 50% base margin to start with especially on physically large, relatively high-ticket items. Some big names have constraints of the models they have to be able to demo in store, they organize events, they deliver those big boxes, etc...

The reasons I buy local, from resellers, are many

- they contribute to the local economy in a way that Amazon/Thomann/whatever do not.
- as a hobbyist, it is nice to have the option to hear different stuff, even if you know you won't purchase it. I know some people won't care about listening to the gear they purchase, but I do.
- there is a social component I happen to like. The last relatively big-ticket item I purchased was delivered to and set up in my home by the reseller and the importer in two vans and we ended up drinking a bit of wine and listening to music until fairly late. Even if I did not need set-up help, and measured, moved and tweaked everything the following week, I was satisfied with the human experience side.

The interaction @Dialectic had with Keith is representative of the added value a reseller can provide and similar to the one I have with mine. If I was local to Keith, I am sure I would have a positive experience with him. I am sure you will provide that kind of experience/expertise to your customer base and wish you the best of luck with your business venture. But, mark my words, pay attention to your margins!

That being said, I think @Purité Audio is overdoing it a bit with his on-line persona. I can't see my resellers telling me some device "destroys everything else" or "go back to your books, old geezer, the young guy who just left was at least able to understand" if I don't fully agree with the sales message he is conveying... The "you are about to die anyway, treat yourself to the best while you still have time" response to @restorer-john above was priceless...

Last but not least, I understand why the mid to high-end HiFi resellers have developed that snake-oil salesman reputation and agree it is mostly deserved. But it would be a mistake to think we are now immune or that the current era is somewhat different imho.

 

[Krunok]

Most likely with a well given demo the speakers should sell themselves to those with cash to spend and who appreciate the delivered sound quality.

I guess this applies to almost anything sold in stores that demo items.

Not that your statement isn't reasonable, most of them actually are, but I'm stll not sure if headphone guys should be allowed to post in loudspeaker related topics - nothing personal though, just a matter of principle..

 

[PierreV]

The sound @Dialectic gets in his sub optimal room with the 8c simply would not be possible with many other speaker systems ..
Few years ago not possible at all.
How's this a bad thing ? I don't get it.
If you add the BACCH system he uses that so many seem to take issue with as well, you get a more rewarding listening experience in the space. It's quite remarkable and forward looking setup.

I don't think this was qualified as a bad thing and I don't think anyone here fundamentally criticizes the BACHH system or the 8C as a speaker except maybe on the long-term reliability/repairability issue, which is a fair concern to have IMHO. That being said, we share that worry on some passive too, don't we?

The message though, that is another thing... The initial Bacch customer post was so hilarious it deserved a "spill coffee on keyboard" special award. And Keith went a bit overboard in this thread. And yes, I think the 8Cs are great speakers.

 

[solderdude]

Not that your statement isn't reasonable, most of them actually are, but I'm stll not sure if headphone guys should be allowed to post in loudspeaker related topics - nothing personal though, just a matter of principle..

What if that headphone guy built and designed many speakers as well as tensionless electrostatic speakers, speaker amps, worked in high-end shops and has some experience with sound engineering for a few bands live as well as recording ?

 

[Purité Audio]

Since I was the one to refer to a 50% margin, I think I should comment on this. I am a passion-driven, business-minded person myself and I do buy from my local resellers as much as possible, happily paying their margin on most things but I also keep an eye on their inventory clearance sales where they may or may not turn a profit. I discussed the issue with them in a couple of cases and they were happy to free up some working capital.
Given all their constraints, stocking, demoing in a brick and mortar place, etc... I am perfectly OK with them having a 50% base margin to start with especially on physically large, relatively high-ticket items. Some big names have constraints of the models they have to be able to demo in store, they organize events, they deliver those big boxes, etc...

The reasons I buy local, from resellers, are many

- they contribute to the local economy in a way that Amazon/Thomann/whatever do not.
- as a hobbyist, it is nice to have the option to hear different stuff, even if you know you won't purchase it. I know some people won't care about listening to the gear they purchase, but I do.
- there is a social component I happen to like. The last relatively big-ticket item I purchased was delivered to and set up in my home by the reseller and the importer in two vans and we ended up drinking a bit of wine and listening to music until fairly late. Even if I did not need set-up help, and measured, moved and tweaked everything the following week, I was satisfied with the human experience side.

The interaction @Dialectic had with Keith is representative of the added value a reseller can provide and similar to the one I have with mine. If I was local to Keith, I am sure I would have a positive experience with him. I am sure you will provide that kind of experience/expertise to your customer base and wish you the best of luck with your business venture. But, mark my words, pay attention to your margins!

That being said, I think @Purité Audio is overdoing it a bit with his on-line persona. I can't see my resellers telling me some device "destroys everything else" or "go back to your books, old geezer, the young guy who just left was at least able to understand" if I don't fully agree with the sales message he is conveying... The "you are about to die anyway, treat yourself to the best while you still have time" response to @restorer-john above was priceless...

Last but not least, I understand why the mid to high-end HiFi resellers have developed that snake-oil salesman reputation and agree it is mostly deserved. But it would be a mistake to think we are now immune or that the current era is somewhat different imho.

The 8Cs couldn’t be further from a snake-oil product, they are just ingenious, combining some new and well understood traditional elements.
Many manufacturers make great sounding loudspeakers, the issues arise when one places those speakers into a domestic/untreated room.
The Kiis and 8CS are designed to ameliorate those problems.
Full-range, phase coherent, perfect step response , boundary coupling, built in tone and EQ , I feel certain other manufacturers would make an 8C ‘type’ if they didn’t have their legacy ranges to protect.
Margin is not at all excessive and completely in line with other ‘pro’ products which is ok, Pro audio varies from almost nothing to 25% Cessaro was nearer 60% ( sighs).
Keith

 

[Krunok]

What if that headphone guy built many speakers as well as tensionless electrostatic speakers, speaker amps and worked in high-end shops as well did some sound engineering for a few bands ?

I didn't say you are incompetent wen it comes to speakers, it's that "headphone guy" image you built..

P.S. I'm joking with this, of course..

 

[Krunok]

The 8Cs couldn’t be further from a snake-oil product, they are just ingenious, combining some new and well understood traditional elements.
Many manufacturers make great sounding loudspeakers, the issues arise when one places those speakers into a domestic/untreated room.
The Kiis and 8CS are designed to ameliorate those problems.
Full-range, phase coherent, perfect step response , boundary coupling, built in tone and EQ , I feel certain other manufacturers would make an 8C ‘type’ if they didn’t have their legacy ranges to protect.

Oh, so 8C have built in EQ feature? I don't remember that feature to be tested by Stereophile. Maybe you can present measurements here so we can see how good of a job they did in your room?

 

[solderdude]

it's that "headphone guy" image you built.

Yeah, i got that from the smilies but some actually think its the only thing I do/have done...
Having had small kids eventually, and reluctantly, got me into HP listening (which I did not care for for all the obvious reasons) but had to learn listening to it and give up imaging and tactile feel but in the end I think some things some headphones do certain things better than most speakers and can appreciate those aspects. Giving up spatial was the hardest thing to do and initially hated the 'in the head' sound. There is a use case for both. I can understand my reputation as a HP guy strictly... but am not.
Just an old fart with a passion.