Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Dialectic]

From a point of progressive development an some similarities the D&D do me think about the highly preased Philips MFB speakers. At that time relative also quite expensive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motional_Feedback

The Kii Threes have motion feedback. The 8Cs do not.

 

[Dialectic]

I don't see the point of having a sub with three ways going that low, honestly.

A lot of people don't see the point of high performance audio.

 

[Dialectic]

With £9k to spend I would hope pretty much any of the available options would sound splendid.

But they aren't. Consider, for example, one manufacturer's recent, tiny "Tune Tot."

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't see the point of having a sub with three ways going that low, honestly.

Have you compared the 8260as with and without subs first one and then two.
I have.
Keith

 

[q3cpma]

A lot of people don't see the point of high performance audio.

Is there supposed to be a point in there? 'Cause I don't see it.

 

[restorer-john]

Hi Keith i'm with you an if i realy do my best i am convinced i will manage evetualy. But this 8C's are for people/users that are a 110% into the usage an theory. So the users/ buyers group is quit minimal imo. If you sell this speakers to a buyer with minimal knoledge the speakers will never reach their potential. A practical solution is creat an app that tells you to put the 8C's where you want them an push this roomcorrection button an leave the room in 10 seconds an come back after measurments are done.

This is where these products fall down. Keith says they remove the 'hobby' aspect and yet consumers are farting around tweaking PEQs, filters, using apps, external devices and generally playing with everything, never knowing what is actually right and what is wrong.

Consider the HT AVR market has had full in room setup for 20 years and supplied calibrated mics for that purpose, these speaker products are really only halfway there. Consumers at this level would want "one button set and forget perfection" sold to them. I could sell that easily to anyone from a wannabe inner urban converted warehouse dwelling hipster, to a retired medical professional who listens to classical music in his wood paneled conservatory.

But I guess that "feature" will be next year's model, the latest and greatest to obsolete and leave out in the cold those poor suckers who paid the hefty price for being early adopters.

I'm just amazed at the crowded market for powered speakers such as these:

grouped at the price point the 8cs sell at (USD$6250 each)

https://vintageking.com/recording/s...studio-monitors-and-speakers?price=5000-10000

https://vintageking.com/recording/studio-monitors/active-studio-monitors-and-speakers

 

[DDF]

They are an overpriced solution to yet another problem that doesn't exist.

Real engineering requires real engineers and their real engineering salaries. Volumes at the higher end are low so per unit costs will be unsurprisingly high. One other option is to buy products from The Far East or India where engineering salaries are still low compared to western standards (I manage them). Unfortunately, so is life cycle experience and achieving reliable products is a greater risk. I expect that to change, but not for ~ 10 years.

I think it’s a bit harsh to say that the design concepts offer no merit. They offer a legitimate alternative especially in lively rooms where the higher DI can be an advantage.

The design concepts of stuffing amps in cabinets does increase the risk of earlier cap failure, I think.

 

[Sal1950]

God bless America.
The 8Cs and Kiis are really good Sal, I don’t know why the giant US companies can’t bring it something as innovative, and I know it must sting a little perhaps you should ask them?
Keith

Better bump that Cessaro thread again and drop the price to 25K this month. (What was it you paid for them?)
Your gonna need the money for next years "miracle, all else is gaslight" speaker.

 

[restorer-john]

The design concepts of stuffing amps in cabinets does increase the risk of earlier cap failure, I think.

I have no problem with amplification and processing inside speaker cabinets, as long as the inevitable parts required are reasonable and freely available. I don't for one second believe these companies will:

a) charge reasonable prices for parts
b) have those parts in stock over the long term (10-20+ years)
c) still be in business, offer firmware upgrades options to bring older products up to date etc.

They are selling these into studios and these guys are in it for the long haul- they hammer their gear and expect it to last and be repairable.

 

[Dialectic]

A lot of people don't see the point of high performance audio.

The point of my post was that good deep bass tends to require subwoofers in almost every situation. I will get subwoofers to augment my 8Cs when I move them into a dedicated listening room in October, even though the 8Cs' response begins to roll off in my current listening position only around 25 Hz.

 

[Sal1950]

I will get subwoofers to augment my 8Cs when I move them into a dedicated listening room in October, even though the 8Cs' response begins to roll off in my current listening position only around 25 Hz.

The drop in distortion from lowering the load on the 8c bass drivers will be another large benefit.
Having response into the mid teens is nice to have too.

 

[restorer-john]

The parts in the 8Cs likeliest to fail (the Pascal modules) are available from third parties at reasonable prices.

At the moment, maybe. How many amp modules/boards do you intend to buy and put in the cupboard for spares after the warranty has run out? Or will you have moved on to another speaker by then maybe?

The parts most likely to fail and deteriorate are the drivers themselves, followed by PSU/Amplifiers and then the interface circuitry in my opinion. How much are spare parts drivers? Have you asked? How long do they promise to keep them in stock? Amplifiers failing can also take out the drivers themselves, creating a double whammy. The SMD capacitors across the DSP boards are also highly likely to fail in that 10-15 year period and they vent onto the boards making a real mess.

I've repaired just about any audio you can think of, much of it already deemed "beyond economical repair (BER)" or "no parts available" over the decades and it's always the integrated, bespoke "solutions" that end up on the scrap heap or in landfill long before anything else.

Not to say they aren't awesome speakers and I'd sure would love a pair to play with. They just aren't an "end game" speaker to me because I know, they'd be on my bench in a decade or so needing repair and I'd be trying to track down some guy who supposedly, based on a rumor, might have a stash of DSP boards in his basement along with some D&D NOS woofers he bought for peanuts when the company folded back in 2026. As for a schematic? Forget it.

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't expect that Keith will soon stop selling Kiis/D&Ds and switch to selling Wilsons, LS3/5As, or the latest Lowther implementations.

Of course not, the Kiis and 8Cs are the future, and if a better speaker appears I will stock that too.
If you really cannot see the advantages of these speakers then you need to return to your books gentlemen.
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

At the moment, maybe. How many amp modules/boards do you intend to buy and put in the cupboard for spares after the warranty has run out? Or will you have moved on to another speaker by then maybe?

The parts most likely to fail and deteriorate are the drivers themselves, followed by PSU/Amplifiers and then the interface circuitry in my opinion. How much are spare parts drivers? Have you asked? How long do they promise to keep them in stock? Amplifiers failing can also take out the drivers themselves, creating a double whammy. The SMD capacitors across the DSP boards are also highly likely to fail in that 10-15 year period and they vent onto the boards making a real mess.

I've repaired just about any audio you can think of, much of it already deemed "beyond economical repair (BER)" or "no parts available" over the decades and it's always the integrated, bespoke "solutions" that end up on the scrap heap or in landfill long before anything else.

Not to say they aren't awesome speakers and I'd sure would love a pair to play with. They just aren't an "end game" speaker to me because I know, they'd be on my bench in a decade or so needing repair and I'd be trying to track down some guy who supposedly, based on a rumor, might have a stash of DSP boards in his basement along with some D&D NOS woofers he bought for peanuts when the company folded back in 2026. As for a schematic? Forget it.

How old are you John, you could easily be long gone ,as could I, personally I want to enjoy the finest quality reproduction while I can still enjoy it.
Keith

 

[PierreV]

The point of my post was that good deep bass tends to require subwoofers in almost every situation. I will get subwoofers to augment my 8Cs when I move them into a dedicated listening room in October, even though the 8Cs' response begins to roll off in my current listening position only around 25 Hz.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your decision process, and also for being realistic. I also preferred the 8C to the KIIs (they felt less "strained" when pushed) but that was highly subjective as I couldn't listen to them side by side. And yes on subs, a perfect FR at 86dB is only part of the story, especially in bass and in large rooms.

 

[PierreV]

Of course not, the Kiis and 8Cs are the future, and if a better speaker appears I will stock that too.
If you really cannot see the advantages of these speakers then you need to return to your books gentlemen.
Keith

Which books did you forget when you bought the Cessaro, Keith? Your constant condescending tone is disappointing. You seem to believe you are the sole owner of a near-religious truth, which you incidentally happen to sell at a probable 50% margin....

 

[Purité Audio]

Mea culpa, I did think horns offered something, but having tried them I find them merely different not better, ask of everything what is it unto itself these speakers simply produce better sound quality through ingenious design, that’s it.
I am sure you can get a decent sound with your speakers once you add some subs, EQ and acoustic treatment .
Keith

 

[restorer-john]

How old are you John, you could easily be long gone ,as could I, personally I want to enjoy the finest quality reproduction while I can still enjoy it.
Keith

Keith, that's a standard sales technique, quite effective on men of a certain age. I'm not one of them.

Like you, I've sold a lot of HiFi back in the day. And you'd know how good it feels when a complete separate system you sold at retail to your best friend's parents-in-law 27 years ago (his retirement gift to himself) is still working perfectly, thanks to the availability of ubiquitous parts and a friendly tech. (true story)

 

[Purité Audio]

That is a heart warming story, but he would be enjoying better sound quality if he sold it and bought a pair of 8Cs.
Keith

 

[Wombat]

Better bump that Cessaro thread again and drop the price to 25K this month. (What was it you paid for them?)
Your gonna need the money for next years "miracle, all else is gaslight" speaker.

Or try to sell, here: contact