Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Purité Audio]

Speakers such as the Kiis/8Cs do remove the ‘hobby’ aspect, I find older guys who have read and believed the BS are far less likely to grasp their concept, they literally cannot believe a one box system can produce a better sound than they currently experience .
Keith

 

[Daverz]

Yeah, I can't understand why anyone with thousands of dollars invested in electronics would be reluctant to drop $13-15k on a new all-in-one speaker system from a small, new company. Must be audiophools.

 

[Purité Audio]

Why invest thousands in electronics when state of the art equipment is relatively inexpensive, speakers make by far the largest contribution to sound quality.
Keith

 

[Dialectic]

Yeah, I can't understand why anyone with thousands of dollars invested in electronics would be reluctant to drop $13-15k on a new all-in-one speaker system from a small, new company. Must be audiophools.

I can. Sunk cost fallacy.

And, yes, I know your post is sarcastic.

 

[Daverz]

I can. Sunk cost fallacy.

And, yes, I know your post is sarcastic.

All things being equal -- total cost of the new speakers, serviceability, projected lifetime, etc -- yeah, it would be irrational to buy the passive because I've sunk money into other electronics. Or if you are the kind of well-heeled audiophile who rolls over tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment every few years anyway.

It's not actually the sunk cost fallacy if I make the decision to buy a cheaper passive speaker now from an established manufacturer with a good track record instead of going with the better sounding all-in-one system from a new manufacturer. I don't know what the service record of these new speakers systems is, have they been around long enough to judge that?

 

[audiophool]

I don’t think there is much appeal for consumer setup. It doesn’t look great, the EQ is harder to use than auto calibration, the dynamics are lacking in far field, and the “constant directivity” is overrated. It’s designed for cramped studio rooms where they can’t place big monitors.

 

[suttondesign]

i will report back late in the year on how well the dutch are being received, at least in my area, where i expect to be the sole dealer. if my bet proves a bad one, oh no, i will be stuck with a pair! maybe i’ll finally build those linkwitz lxmini’s.

 

[JJB70]

I think that the future is definitely active speakers with on-board DACs, I will go further and say I think that the future is also wireless pairing with a device. My only concern, as has already been noted, is spending so much to put all the eggs in one basket if anything goes pop but in terms of performance and user friendliness then I think system speakers are the way forward.

On customer acceptance, I think it is relevant that to younger people music systems are now wireless speakers and soundbars and the general market has pretty much abandoned traditional audio set ups using passive speakers. That means that if people who have only known active speakers do get an urge to move upscale they are already familiar and comfortable with the concept of system speakers. I think it is quite telling that we are seeing a lot more interest in high performance soundbars and BT speakers from manufacturers, some of the products in those segments now are excellent.

 

[restorer-john]

Bottom line is these all-in-one 'lifestyle solution speakers' are obscenely overpriced for their material content. Of course some will sell, and maybe enough to keep the company solvent just long enough to be able to service and supply the inevitable spare parts required at the 7-10 year mark, when stuff starts failing. Look at these boards. Component level repair is out. Replacement boards are the only option.

Let's be really generous and say there's $500 worth of components here:

And $500 for a woofer.
And $500 for a tweeter.
And $500 for a cabinet.
And another $500 for the back plate, connectors, box and instructions.

That's a ridiculously generous $2500. Let's give D&D 50% gross margin and the dealers the same. There's $10K. Trouble is, in Australia, they are:

What are they in the US? USD$13K?

Tell me, what are they going to be worth when the next better model comes out? The hits people take at these price points on the secondary market or as trade-ins are neck snappingly hilarious.

I'd love a pair to play with, but at about AUD$1599 pair maximum. Even that is pushing it.

 

[BillG]

Forum members, do you think consumers, as opposed to music industry pros, will buy all-in-one speakers like the Dutch & Dutch 8C's?

Yes, my next system will consist of active, and probably wireless, speakers/monitors, a streamer, a server and a smart device for remote control. However, I won't be purchasing the 8C, as it's too expensive for my needs and budget. I'll probably go with Yamaha or JBL active studio monitors - I don't particularly trust "audiophile" manufacturers...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Bottom line is these all-in-one 'lifestyle solution speakers' are obscenely overpriced for their material content. Of course some will sell, and maybe enough to keep the company solvent just long enough to be able to service and supply the inevitable spare parts required at the 7-10 year mark, when stuff starts failing. Look at these boards. Component level repair is out. Replacement boards are the only option.

Let's be really generous and say there's $500 worth of components here:
View attachment 29951

And $500 for a woofer.
And $500 for a tweeter.
And $500 for a cabinet.
And another $500 for the back plate, connectors, box and instructions.

That's a ridiculously generous $2500. Let's give D&D 50% gross margin and the dealers the same. There's $10K. Trouble is, in Australia, they are:

View attachment 29952

What are they in the US? USD$13K?

Tell me, what are they going to be worth when the next better model comes out? The hits people take at these price points on the secondary market or as trade-ins are neck snappingly hilarious.

I'd love a pair to play with, but at about AUD$1599 pair maximum. Even that is pushing it.

FWIW I have only knowledge of the car industry and Garrard (record players)
Both had retail prices about 10x the manufacturing cost. At Garrard it was to allow the retailer to offer an attractive discount, with cars it is the cost of the tooling to make the manufactured parts inexpensive, the cost of R&D and marketing, one maker I know of spends more per unit marketing their cars than it does on the BOM.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The reason I haven't bought speakers like the Kii or D&D (yet maybe) is that I have a pair of speakers I still enjoy after over 20 years, and amp which is SOTA for measurements, looks nice and has a remote control with a rotary volume control. I have given up on streaming music files in exasperation.
I am fairly sure they would be better than what I have in SQ but maybe not by much and the inconvenience of having to use a computer or something to play music outweighs this by a factor of 20 at least for me. Plus I would have the tedious job of selling existing stuff, which I detest.
The most important things for me are accurate musical timbre, 20-20k frequency response and ergonomic function. I have these already.
Accurate soundstage, whatever that may be, is not something I am exercised by and is IMO probably not one of the fidelities which will ever be high...

 

[restorer-john]

Both had retail prices about 10x the manufacturing cost.

I was playing generous games on component cost and allowing manufacturer to importer/retailer as one leap. There's no importer and distributor surely with these D&Ds.

Tell me, where does the money go and is there a value proposition at all?

 

[Dialectic]

I was playing generous games on component cost and allowing manufacturer to importer/retailer as one leap. There's no importer and distributor surely with these D&Ds.

Tell me, where does the money go and is there a value proposition at all?

D&D does have importers and distributors. The 8Cs are not sold direct to consumers.

I think the measurements convey the value proposition.

 

[restorer-john]

D&D does have importers and distributors. The 8Cs are not sold direct to consumers.

So a tiny company has put importers and separate distributors between them and the consumer? They are all dipping their silver spoons into the train laden with gravy and the hapless audiophile at the end is footing the bill. No wonder they are ridiculously priced.

Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Matsushita et-al all ran one flat structure that was heavily subsidized by the Japanese parent companies and hence were able to get their TOTL, SOTA products into practically any market that wouldn't otherwise see them, either as halo products or aspirational, but reasonably attainable.

I think the measurements convey the value proposition.

Of course you do. You have stumped up your cash and are invested. Invested financially and emotionally. You cannot be expected to objectively consider a value proposition based in logic.

Break the device down into pure materials cost. Add some cost for IP and DSP 'know how'. Add some profit centres along the line. Add some marketing and buzz or hype value. It may add up for you and I'm glad it does, but I'm willing to bet the vast population of audiophiles, hifi buyers and consumers will not be remotely interested in these products as they simply don't represent good value for money.

They are an overpriced solution to yet another problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Dialectic]

So a tiny company has put importers and separate distributors between them and the consumer? They are all dipping their silver spoons into the train laden with gravy and the hapless audiophile at the end is footing the bill. No wonder they are ridiculously priced.

Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Matsushita et-al all ran one flat structure that was heavily subsidized by the Japanese parent companies and hence were able to get their TOTL, SOTA products into practically any market that wouldn't otherwise see them, either as halo products or aspirational, but reasonably attainable.



Of course you do. You have stumped up your cash and are invested. Invested financially and emotionally. You cannot be expected to objectively consider a value proposition based in logic.

Break the device down into pure materials cost. Add some cost for IP and DSP 'know how'. Add some profit centres along the line. Add some marketing and buzz or hype value. It may add up for you and I'm glad it does, but I'm willing to bet the vast population of audiophiles, hifi buyers and consumers will not be remotely interested in these products as they simply don't represent good value for money.

They are an overpriced solution to yet another problem that doesn't exist.

I do know that the boards inside cost a lot more than $500. Each speaker has three Pascal amplifiers, an I/O board, and an admittedly cheap Beagleboard Black.

I considered other options before I bought the 8Cs. I bought them because they offered the best performance at the lowest cost of any option I considered.

I don't care what parts cost. I care about outcomes. And yes, the 8Cs measure better than any speaker/amplifier combination that Sony or Pioneer or Matsushita ever made. (I'm familiar with some of their legacy Exclusive/Elite/ES products.)

 

[Thomas savage]

While I share and understand some of @restorer-john objections for me the value in these in terms of performance Vs cost is excellent.

I'd happily live with a pair considering their performance compared to my vastly more expensive setup.

Like Frank I hate selling stuff as it's a ball ache so I'm sticking with my up turned clown shoes but sound wise these 8c speakers were very familiar to what im used to and that's hardly ever the case with fellow audio enthusiasts hifi. Normally IME they are embarrassingly bad sounding no matter the cost.

 

[Snarfie]

Was reading a dutch test about D&D 8C conclusion was great speakers but quite difficult to implement the roomcorrection. Basicly if you change your room setup you have to start from scratch. I can relate to that with mine own setup using mathaudio room EQ. I have different measurments for instance listning with curtains open or closed the difference is quite noteble. I realy had to learn how to do proper measurments with the neccecary microfoon measuring points etc. Don't know how the D&D measure the room but probably it is quite difficult esspecialy if you don't have the needed knoledge. Don't think age have anything to do with that. Did try to master REW halve way i stopped not because making a freqency measurment but all secundair measurment that (could) follow. Like time domain measurments or reading correctly a watherfall were dying reflections shows the room acoustics. Some of them can't be corrected by software but only with defuser is what i understand. Man if you start getting some basic knoledge about roomcorrection you need almost a bachelor titel to master it.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Kiis/8Cs/Beolab 90’s allow you to enjoy higher sound quality than other speakers, that’s the bottom line.
There is no foo or BS they measure better they sound better.
As with any product the individual has to judge their ‘value for money’.
Personally I just want to enjoy the highest possible sound quality while I can still hear it.
Keith

 

[garbulky]

The real issue is not the technology. But the price point. Let’s be real, they are expensive even though they are an all in one component. People that can afford it probably don’t care about things like reliability or things like that. If it strikes their fancy they buy it. When they are tired of it they buy the next thing that strikes their fancy.

But it still comes down to how many people are going to be willing to pay that price? Clearly there are some but nowhere near the mass market levels of much cheaper speakers.