How far have ss amps really come in the last twenty years??

[Sal1950]

About this spl-capacity. I have never wanted to have high spl and I've been happy with 20-50W amps since '70s. Now during last 6 years I have met many new "hifi" friends and visited vice-versa. Almost all of them want to listen so loud that I must walk out of the room! I can't give any quality assessment with that high spl, peaks measured around 105-110db. But, obviously I am the weird guy representing minority...

A trap I think we've all fallen into at various times in life, attempting to impress visitors with the high levels our system is capable of while still playing cleanly.

 

[anmpr1]

Is that really so? I typcally listen music for 3-4 hours every day and I'm supposed to crank it to "at least 115dB"? And how much is my hearing supposed to last with that kind of SPLs?

If you want to realistically reproduce levels at rock concert to make impression you're near the first row that is certainly true but for the rest of the music genres hardly so.

What Paul was saying, and what I didn't convey well, was not that you were supposed to listen at those levels on average. But for lifelike dynamics that is what you'd need. He determined this from SPL measurement of live sound at various venues, from lowest to loudest.

 

[Krunok]

Compression drivers coupled to horns can produce very high volume with low distortion when driven by much less power than most (probably the vast majority of) conventional speakers.

And yet they are not so widely used in home systems. HK doesn't used them, KEF and many others either.. There must be a reason for that.

 

[Krunok]

What Paul was saying, and what I didn't convey well, was not that you were supposed to listen at those levels on average. But for lifelike dynamics that is what you'd need. He determined this from SPL measurement of live sound at various venues, from lowest to loudest.

Sure, I got it that way. I see no issue to set speaker requirement to be able to reach 110-115dB in peaks.

 

[DonH56]

Probably more costly to make due to the horn (have to make/mold the horn, and often larger and/or more expensive, harder-to-assemble enclosures result). Total WAG on my part -- I am not a speaker designer. I don't know if (or why) compression drivers themselves cost more. There is also audiophile bias and marketing that has been anti-horn for a long time due mainly (IMO) to poor speaker designs (beamy, too bright, etc.)

 

[Krunok]

Probably more costly to make due to the horn (have to make/mold the horn, and often larger and/or more expensive, harder-to-assemble enclosures result). Total WAG on my part -- I am not a speaker designer. I don't know if (or why) compression drivers themselves cost more. There is also marketing that has been anti-horn for a long time due mainly to poor speaker designs (beamy, too bright, etc.)

I don't really think cost of the driver was a decisive factor when choosing tweeter for a flagship loudspeaker like Ultima2. Those Beryllium dome tweeters aren't cheap for sure..

 

[DonH56]

I don't really think cost of the driver was a decisive factor when choosing tweeter for a flagship loudspeaker like Ultima2. Those Beryllium dome tweeters aren't cheap for sure..

I'm talking about the mass-market'ish range not high end. Though price-wise my Salon2's barely enter "high-end" in these days of $100k to $1M speaker systems.

 

[Frank Dernie]

And yet they are not so widely used in home systems. HK doesn't used them, KEF and many others either.. There must be a reason for that.

They are very much more expensive to make and very big, so the market is probably tiny.
Magico have a range of speakers with are pretty expensive but their top model is a horn.
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

 

[Krunok]

I'm talking about the mass-market'ish range not high end. Though price-wise my Salon2's barely enter "high-end" in these days of $100k to $1M speaker systems.

Well, I don't remember seeing much horns in the mass market'ish range either.

IMHO your Salon2's are indeed true high end speakers. Unfortuntaely my knowledge of English is not sufficient to find a suitable word for $100k to $1M speaker systems. Maybe "show-off" speakers?

 

[Krunok]

They are very much more expensive to make and very big, so the market is probably tiny.
Magico have a range of speakers with are pretty expensive but their top model is a horn.
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

Huh.. These are so ugly that I wouldn't even bother to ask wife if she would allow them in the house.

 

[Floyd Toole]

Compression drivers coupled to horns can produce very high volume with low distortion when driven by much less power than most (probably the vast majority of) conventional speakers. So, a few watts, a little turn on the volume control, and they get loud quickly and continue at levels far beyond what a conventional, typical, speaker/amp combo will do. More undistorted output with less power = more dynamic to most consumers. They use "dynamic" in a different way than I typically do, but then again I can understand them (usually) and they often cannot understand me.

Such is life - Don

I agree with this comment. Having spent a lifetime listening to all manner of loudspeakers and having designed a few, for the experience, not to get commercial, all I can say is that my interpretation of "dynamic" can be fulfilled by both cones and domes and by horns. Until recently timbral peculiarities of most horns put me off, but the latest examples, such as the JBL Pro M2 are absolutely competitive with the best cone/dome designs such as the Revel Salon2 in terms of sound quality - and this behavior is well described in anechoic spinorama measurements; i.e. evaluating linear distortions. When driven by power amps capable of delivering the necessary power without voltage or current clipping, or protection activation, both delivered the goods in terms of bandwidth and sound levels within prudent hearing conservation levels.

For me, much of the sensation of "dynamics" is delivered by very low frequencies. So I have a seriously capable multiple subwoofer system. Take that away, or tone it down, and things revert to much "smaller" and "ordinary" right away. Reproduction to 20 Hz or below is impressive even if it is not shaking your body, which is is also capable of doing, most often in movies. Many modern music recordings have "organ pedal" frequencies in them, and it is seductive. One wonders if they were heard in the control rooms.

Another factor is directivity and the extent to which the room is energized. Here is where horns often distinguish themselves by putting the listener in a more dominant direct sound field - it is why they are used in professional audio - to address an audience with minimal excitation of the venue. Although at domestic sound levels horns and compression drivers exhibit low distortion, in their professional roles air non-linearity in the throat can generate audible distortion at high sound levels. They found their way into consumer products because of their high efficiency at a time when amplifier power was seriously rationed. That is no longer an issue. I go to live symphonic concerts about a dozen times a year, and it is a very different experience from any stereo rendering of the same music. The real thing is huge, enveloping and crescendos are, to me, "dynamic" even when the sound levels are lower than I can generate at home. The dominant frontal sound of stereo can't do it and turning up the volume doesn't help. A tasteful multichannel upmix is a more satisfying experience, even at moderate sound levels.

Many high quality cone & dome systems have low sensitivity combined with low impedances and these require serious horsepower to generate cinema sound levels - I'm using 800 watts at 4 ohms. Typical receivers lack the power and are not even specified to drive 4 ohms without misbehavior, so mass market audio has understandably been seeking more "dynamics". Yes, when the volume is turned up distortion increases, but one needs to ask where it originates. I have had two instances of misbehaving overload protection circuits in my home systems, and these were in high priced, high power amps that were not happy driving the complex, and sometimes low, impedances that show up in consumer loudspeakers. It was complicated in my situation because I had several amplifiers and several loudspeakers circulating through my life - tracking down the culprit was tricky. This sort of thing must be common in mass market receivers when they are pushed. So, of course at least some of the time the speakers get the blame.

Non-linear distortion can occur at the low-end of the tweeter frequency range. Although much attention is paid to diaphragm materials, it is often the invisible and not discussed motor that really makes an audible difference. Another factor in alleviating this distortion that occurs in an unfortunate frequency range is to employ a shallow waveguide (a.k.a. horn) to increase the directivity and on-axis output in this frequency range. It has the equally important advantage of improving the directivity match at crossover to a midrange. Put a well designed, linear, motor on a tweeter with a waveguide and it matters less what the diaphragm material is - except to the marketing department.

I'm rambling so I will stop. Just to point out that what we perceive as dynamic performance is not simple. Not everything we may describe as "dynamic" has to do with sound level. You may want to look at Part 3 of my series "how to design a home theater" in the companion website to the 3rd edition of my book. It is open access, no need to buy the book. www.routledge.com/cw/toole. This discusses amp & speaker matching in some detail - click on the title at the top of the web page.

 

[digicidal]

And yet they are not so widely used in home systems. HK doesn't used them, KEF and many others either.. There must be a reason for that.

If memory serves, which it actually rarely does these days... I thought I read somewhere years ago that Harman (Sidney, not the brand per se) was instrumental in pushing JBL to put even more effort into producing horn models - especially for cinema installations, but also for high end home. I think this was in the early 70's - in any case, it was anecdotal. Regardless... I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't kick a pair of Everest DD66000's out of their listening room... that is if they could even fit them in there - I certainly couldn't.

 

[BDWoody]

Huh.. These are so ugly that I wouldn't even bother to ask wife if she would allow them in the house.

Smart man. You do have to pick your battles carefully...

 

[Floyd Toole]

If memory serves, which it actually rarely does these days... I thought I read somewhere years ago that Harman (Sidney, not the brand per se) was instrumental in pushing JBL to put even more effort into producing horn models - especially for cinema installations, but also for high end home. I think this was in the early 70's - in any case, it was anecdotal. Regardless... I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't kick a pair of Everest DD66000's out of their listening room... that is if they could even fit them in there - I certainly couldn't.

For cinema and other large venue systems there is really no choice but to use horns. Both efficiency and directivity control are factors. As for high end audio systems, a major driving factor for horns was the Asian market. In fact several such products were not even available in western markets. Asians, for some reason, were attracted to old Tannoys, Electrovoice and JBL horn systems. It may have had something to do with small tube amps, including single-ended triodes. Or not . . .

 

[digicidal]

For cinema and other large venue systems there is really no choice but to use horns. Both efficiency and directivity control are factors. As for high end audio systems, a major driving factor for horns was the Asian market. In fact several such products were not even available in western markets. Asians, for some reason, were attracted to old Tannoys, Electrovoice and JBL horn systems. It may have had something to do with small tube amps, including single-ended triodes. Or not . . .

Could even be partially due to the shape that most horns have... as it mimics many of the lines of classical Japanese Shinto architecture. I think you're right about most of it having to do with tube amps however. They definitely love their 'audio antiques' there... and pay exhorbitant prices to collect originals.

 

[digicidal]

Huh.. These are so ugly that I wouldn't even bother to ask wife if she would allow them in the house.

I certainly can't speak for your wife... but with mine - if I've bought her a house with a listening room large enough to house those... and enough money left over that dropping $600K on some speakers isn't insane... she'd be more than happy to have those. She'd even listen to them while ordering 5,000 pairs of shoes and a few hundred handbags.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Well, I must admit I don't go to rock concerts anymore unless wife twists my arm to accompany her. I also have to admit I don't carry SPL meter when going to jazz clubs but I'm pretty sure that peaks don't reach 115dB. And even if they do, and let's assume you are getting app 90dB of average SPL when sitting close to the players, you don't really need highly efficient horns to reach those peaks.

Jazz band peaks are well over 115 dB. A kick drum can be 140 dB. A trumpet can max at 155 dB.

SPL at listening position depends on distance from band.

Reference: https://www.shure.com/en-US/support...rophone-handle-really-loud-sounds-maximum-spl

 

[digicidal]

Jazz band peaks are well over 115 dB. A kick drum can be 140 dB. A trumpet can max at 155 dB.

SPL at listening position depends on distance from band.

Reference: https://www.shure.com/en-US/support...rophone-handle-really-loud-sounds-maximum-spl

Yes, but no one listens 1" away from the band... at least I think they would have a problem performing if you did. Not to mention it would sound like crap and you'd go deaf fairly quickly. SPL at listening position depends on distance (by definition). Doesn't matter what's making the sound.

 

[Floyd Toole]

Jazz band peaks are well over 115 dB. A kick drum can be 140 dB. A trumpet can max at 155 dB.

SPL at listening position depends on distance from band.

Reference: https://www.shure.com/en-US/support...rophone-handle-really-loud-sounds-maximum-spl

Yup, a trumpet can hit 155 dB at 1 inch, and only at high frequencies. These are sound levels experienced by microphones close to the sources, not back in the audience - but as you say, distance matters. Naturally, musicians experiencing such sound levels in bands routinely experience hearing loss. That was the motivation for musicians earplugs that turn the volume down while preserving basic timbre. I have used them for years. www.etymotic.com. The inventors.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Yup, a trumpet can hit 155 dB at 1 inch, and only at high frequencies. These are sound levels experienced by microphones close to the sources, not back in the audience - but as you say, distance matters. Naturally, musicians experiencing such sound levels in bands routinely experience hearing loss. That was the motivation for musicians earplugs that turn the volume down while preserving basic timbre. I have used them for years. www.etymotic.com. The inventors.

My point was to show that if a speaker is to reproduce real-life sounds, you need serious machinery. In some cases, people sit 5-15 meters from their speakers, just like one would in a small jazz club. Bookshelf speakers won’t make it «happen» if you expect that club feeling at home. The reason why discussions get a bit heated when one talks about «punch», «dynamics, may be due to human behaviour where people feel a need to defend their choices and purchases even if it’s obvious their gear is inadequate in certain respects.

On the other hand, for those who don’t have large rooms, nearfield speakers is an intelligent compromise to max direct sound and SPL with a small foot print in terms of gear. Headphones and in-ears are an intelligent choice too, if one is short on space and budgetary freedom.