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Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

Sal1950

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I am one of those who still buys CDs, immediately rips them to FLAC and then archives the discs. This means that I have the convenience of computer audio in CD quality and if anything ever happens I still have the discs. Weirdly I have bought a few new CDs lately where it was cheaper to buy the disc than to buy the download.
I was doing that for quite a while but since I got streaming I'll only buy the CD if it's something I want to archive in the best possible quality. For 95% of the music I audition, Spotify's 320kbps is just fine.
 

JJB70

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I must admit that I am basically doing the usual thing of fooling myself by ripping everything to FLAC rather than high quality MP3. I have done comparisons quite a few times and although in some cases I can identify the FLAC version in plenty of others I can't and in no cases would I say that it alters my enjoyment of music. However, since memory is now pretty cheap and I am as susceptible to the psychological self deception that makes me think something is better I use FLAC.
 

Midwest Blade

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I came across the quote from Rudy Van Gelder who was a producer with a fair following, I go to a lot of his remasters when it comes to collecting classic jazz CD's. Sort of sums up my feeling on vinyl even though I still occassionally unsleeve one to listen.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

Rudy Van Gelder
 

MattHooper

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I came across the quote from Rudy Van Gelder who was a producer with a fair following, I go to a lot of his remasters when it comes to collecting classic jazz CD's. Sort of sums up my feeling on vinyl even though I still occassionally unsleeve one to listen.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

Rudy Van Gelder

That quote appears in virtually every vinyl debate thread :) I could almost recite it from memory.

Of course there are also those who master for vinyl who enjoy it.
 

sergeauckland

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Herbert Von Karajan, on hearing an early prototype of CD, was quoted as saying " all else is gaslight".

When I worked for Philips, I was fortunate to hear an early CD, when the disk was smaller than was eventually released, small enough so that a player could fit into the standard DIN in-car radio slot. It sounded sublime.

S.
 

Frank Dernie

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That quote appears in virtually every vinyl debate thread :) I could almost recite it from memory.

Of course there are also those who master for vinyl who enjoy it.
Funnily enough I have never seen the quote.
I am quite sure, from my experience making recordings, that digital recorders make a recording indistinguishable to my ears to the microphone feed. Tape recorders do not, and LP records are not as good as the tape they come from, obviously.
It is a fact however that plenty of recording and mixing engineers can ruin a good potential by dicking around too much and equally true that a well produced LP sounds better than a poorly produced CD and vice versa.
 

Frank Dernie

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I just had the opportunity to listen to a high-end system of a local distributor of acoustic treatment products. We listened to James Newton Howard & Friends on vinyl and on his digital system at 16 bit 44khz as a direct comparison. The vinyl was a revelation. I've never heard such lush, clear, dynamic sound before. The digital version sounded flat and grainy. This was not a small difference. Anyone could easily A/B this in a blind test. I'm prepared to accept that there could be any number of reasons why his digital chain didn't perform as well as could be achieved, but for now, vinyl is in the lead. Nothing else we listened to on his digital chain measured up either.
I have been listening to high end record player systems for 50 years and have owned state of the art high end LP replay kit for 44 of those years, the last 30 with a Goldmund Reference with T3f arm and a range of cartridges. It sounds great but certainly is not as accurate as digital at a fraction of the cost. I have yet to audition a better turntable than the Goldmund which was technically very sound from the concept.
IME if a record player sounds nicer than digital it is usually in a system with bright speakers chosen (often unknowingly) to compensate for the treble roll off common on several well liked high end cartridges. Obviously playing a source with a flat frequency response sounds over bright through such speakers.
I would be very suspicious of the quality of the rest of the system if LPs always sounded better than CDs. IMHO CDs certainly have obvious superiority although the potential is not always realised in a real release. I do have some great sounding LPs as well though I would not say my best sounding LPs sound better than my best sounding CDs
 

MattHooper

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Frank,

I share your suspicion about vinyl "trouncing" a good digital source (even a cheap-but-good digital source). While individual recordings can shine more on vinyl due to, say, mastering differences between the digital/vinyl version, I've never heard vinyl trounce digital over a large selection of recordings.

Still, vinyl does tend overall to sound a bit different, and if someone really latches on to liking that difference, I understand how they may conclude subjectively "the vinyl sounded better than the digital."

Also, I admit to some recognition in what nscrivener wrote about the digital version sounding "flat" compared to the vinyl. I have had that perception numerous times. In fact, when I've been listening to vinyl for extended periods and I go back to streaming my CD collection, the digital seems a bit more "canned" and "flatter" in comparison. But then the strengths of digital become more prevelant as I listen to more digital.
 

nscrivener

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I have been listening to high end record player systems for 50 years and have owned state of the art high end LP replay kit for 44 of those years, the last 30 with a Goldmund Reference with T3f arm and a range of cartridges. It sounds great but certainly is not as accurate as digital at a fraction of the cost. I have yet to audition a better turntable than the Goldmund which was technically very sound from the concept.
IME if a record player sounds nicer than digital it is usually in a system with bright speakers chosen (often unknowingly) to compensate for the treble roll off common on several well liked high end cartridges. Obviously playing a source with a flat frequency response sounds over bright through such speakers.
I would be very suspicious of the quality of the rest of the system if LPs always sounded better than CDs. IMHO CDs certainly have obvious superiority although the potential is not always realised in a real release. I do have some great sounding LPs as well though I would not say my best sounding LPs sound better than my best sounding CDs

We listened to other tracks as well. Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms on LP sounded worse than the digital version. Some of the other digital tracks we listened to were closer in quality but all fell shy of where the above-mentioned LP got to. This was not a system you should be suspicious of. The guy is a total fanatic about sound. It was a customised fully acoustically treated listening space. There was no notable excess brightness on the digital playback. He did mention that it was difficult to find good LPs these days and that most pressings sounded worse than their digital equivalents.

I'm no particular advocate for vinyl, I don't own a turntable myself, as I've always enjoyed the convenience of digital. Nothing beats being able to play anything you like at the drop of a hat. My own system uses Roon and Tidal Hifi.
 

MattHooper

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I just opened my Cheap Trick vinyl box set of re-issues. Spun one of the albums - Heaven Tonight. First, the box set is beautifully presented. It's wonderful to pull out a spanking new, pristine LP, just satisfying to look at and hold. And then spinning it on the turntable.....the sound is utterly glorious! I mean, everything I could want - every single instrument heard with wonderful clarity and separation. rich, warm, vivid, punchy, drums sound so much like drums. I couldn't stop air-drumming away.

This is the appeal of vinyl to me. It's a whole experience I enjoy: the owning, the physical presence, nostalgia for the format combined with a sense of discovery - so many new vinyl releases, re-releases, and exploring old music I'd missed that never came out on CD. Combine that with the impression it can sound as gorgeous as anything I've ever played through my system and for me nothing beats that whole package when it comes to enjoying music at home, at this point in my life.

(With acknowledgement that not obviously everyone shares that view, of course).
 

Hypnotoad

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I just opened my Cheap Trick vinyl box set of re-issues. Spun one of the albums - Heaven Tonight. First, the box set is beautifully presented. It's wonderful to pull out a spanking new, pristine LP, just satisfying to look at and hold. And then spinning it on the turntable.....the sound is utterly glorious! I mean, everything I could want - every single instrument heard with wonderful clarity and separation. rich, warm, vivid, punchy, drums sound so much like drums. I couldn't stop air-drumming away.

This is the appeal of vinyl to me. It's a whole experience I enjoy: the owning, the physical presence, nostalgia for the format combined with a sense of discovery - so many new vinyl releases, re-releases, and exploring old music I'd missed that never came out on CD. Combine that with the impression it can sound as gorgeous as anything I've ever played through my system and for me nothing beats that whole package when it comes to enjoying music at home, at this point in my life.

(With acknowledgement that not obviously everyone shares that view, of course).

You have captured most of the real answer to the question: "Turntables - help me understand the appeal?"
 

patient_ot

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I came across the quote from Rudy Van Gelder who was a producer with a fair following, I go to a lot of his remasters when it comes to collecting classic jazz CD's. Sort of sums up my feeling on vinyl even though I still occassionally unsleeve one to listen.

"The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium."

Rudy Van Gelder


Here is a sample of RVG's cutting instructions for vinyl, taken from someone that had access to the tape boxes and posted them on another board:

Cutting instructions: LOW FREQ CUTOFF: 45 cycles, HIGH FREQ CUTOFF: 12,000 cycles

Compression ratio: 8:1

High EQ: +5 @ 5,000 cycles


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: RVG's CD remasters, IMHO they can sound quite horrible sometimes. I don't know if his hearing was shot or what when he did a lot of them but they are not enjoyable to listen to. Many of the titles he did for Blue Note were mastered in the 80s and 90s on CD by Ron McMaster, Larry Walsh, and maybe some other engineers (not sure who did some of the Japanese discs or all the Connoisseur titles). By and large these sound way better to me than any RVG remastered version. Some of the RVGs seem more compressed and sound like the stereo separation was narrowed a bit. Maybe he liked them that what - no idea.
 

Zog

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What is the appeal of vinyl? More fun, more enjoyment. I play digital most of the time but when friends are around it is the LPs (and wine) that gets passed around, gatefolds opened, and discussed. I don't worry about digital being better than vinyl. In some cases where I have both it is better, in others it is not. Obsessing about digital superiority is like telling a vintage / or convertible car owner that a newer model will have better performance measurements.
 

Midwest Blade

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Here is a sample of RVG's cutting instructions for vinyl, taken from someone that had access to the tape boxes and posted them on another board:

Cutting instructions: LOW FREQ CUTOFF: 45 cycles, HIGH FREQ CUTOFF: 12,000 cycles

Compression ratio: 8:1

High EQ: +5 @ 5,000 cycles

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: RVG's CD remasters, IMHO they can sound quite horrible sometimes. I don't know if his hearing was shot or what when he did a lot of them but they are not enjoyable to listen to. Many of the titles he did for Blue Note were mastered in the 80s and 90s on CD by Ron McMaster, Larry Walsh, and maybe some other engineers (not sure who did some of the Japanese discs or all the Connoisseur titles). By and large these sound way better to me than any RVG remastered version. Some of the RVGs seem more compressed and sound like the stereo separation was narrowed a bit. Maybe he liked them that what - no idea.

Yes, I have seen where RVG has come under some criticism for his work, as with all recorded music we are so much at the mercy of engineers and producers vs the artists. With Tidal I generally can do some comparison but it seems that versions come and go from the general catalog limiting any choice. I still buy CD's but make my choice quite carefully.
 

617

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I'll add my opinion. This is an interesting discussion given that it is being conducted among a community of people who generally come here to scrutinize the technical performance of audio products, and who value 'audio science'.

I've had a few transformative audio experiences. One was when I heard acoustat 4x4's, or whatever the big ones are called. One was when I bought a fostex full range driver and hooked it up to the output of my little mp3 player in 2006 and listened to a 128/s mp3 of john lennon speaking into a magnetic wire demo recorder. One was when I bought, or found, a realistic or sharp linear tracking turntable, bought a grado black p-mount cartridge and listened to an ancient recording of Grieg songs. It sounded so beautiful; there was a sense of visiting another time and place, but the sound quality had identifiable qualities I really liked as well. It was colorful, expressive, dramatic. It was also noisy, faint and distant.

This inspired me to pick up an Technics SL 1210 mk2, which I still have, and collect vinyl here and there. I don't have any fancy special records, just a collection of classical, latin and pop recordings from over the years.

I was refurbishing it recently and fitted a 20 dollar AT cartridge to it just to get everything up and running (I had to completely disassemble the arm mount and relubricate the 3" diameter, hair fine vta threads.) This cartridge is garbage, but I did listen to it and although it was a harsh, I really liked some aspects of the sound. The dynamics had a really nice quality, and there was a lively lushness, a colorful density which made music really good to listen to.

At the same time, it was lacking a lot of hifi-qualities which we're used to in the digital age. The noise was noticeable on classical stuff, treble wasn't refined, reverb didn't trail off smoothly, etc.

Although the sound achieved by a perfectly 'technically correct' system can be thrilling and enveloping, there is something to be said for the process of tailoring sound to your preferences and ears. Vinyl forces us to do this since setting up the system requires qualitative choices - what turntable, what cartridge, what preamp, at the very least. Tracking force makes a big difference too. The difference between a Grado and an AT cartridge is not dissimilar to the difference between their headphones, especially at the lower end. I'd imagine when you're spending 1K+ on a cartridge, the differences become more subtle.

If you purchase an accurate state of the art stereo, what flexibility do you have with regards to sound? You might be able to use digital EQ, or maybe change the treble level of your speakers, but these adjustments are pretty limited compared to finding a phono cartridge you really like. Yes, you probably don't want more noise in your system, but introducing a little noise, or a little stereo crosstalk can make some music easier to listen to.

I design speakers for fun, and when I do that, I abide by commonly accepted technical standards. I don't like to 'shape' the sound, I make a speaker with a big, distortion free bandwidth and responsibly managed directivity, a big 'space' for recordings to live in un-impinged. I really am looking forward to getting a better TT cart and hearing what it sounds like on my latest speakers.
 

patient_ot

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Yes, I have seen where RVG has come under some criticism for his work, as with all recorded music we are so much at the mercy of engineers and producers vs the artists. With Tidal I generally can do some comparison but it seems that versions come and go from the general catalog limiting any choice. I still buy CD's but make my choice quite carefully.

I do not mind RVG's mastering on LP, but I woudn't call it "hi-fi". I think he was dealing with the limitation of equipment that was in popular use during the 60s and 70s, which meant low-end record changers and console stereos. He had to make do.

With the CDs, the difference is quite stark on some albums, for example Out to Lunch, Blue Train, and Maiden Voyage. Out to Lunch is basically unlistenable for me in the RVG remaster version.

The most recent remasters you will probably see on Tidal of Blue Note stuff were done by Alan Yoshida I believe. I haven't listened to them enough to form a firm opinion on them. IIRC they were only released on streaming, hi-rez digital, and expensive "Audio Wave" CD editions available mainly through audiophile stores.
 

Natchie

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In my vinyl setup, what I found most intriguing is how at times, music opens up with more channels of dynamic discovery unheard before. With digital setup, sounds tend to remain the same, offering no differentiation. If anything, vinyl setup makes me appreciate my systems more.
 

MattHooper

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I have followed the "vinyl revival" story in the news for quite a while, and comments like these often appear in the stories:

https://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/...-video-games-blu-rays-and-dvds-at-the-library

"Enjoy listening to music the way many audiophiles argue it is meant to be heard – in vinyl format."

I always groan when I read this, and the many versions of vinyl being an "audiophile format."

I don't need to explain to anyone here why of course. It pains me that the surge in vinyl popularity is also being accompanied by the perpetuation of myths and misstatements about the technical or sonic "superiority" of vinyl. Like most here I'd prefer people become more educated about the nature of progress towards accuracy, not mislead.

On the other hand....

If I can find a silver lining in all this, it's that as an audio enthusiast, I do like the fact that sound quality has become part of the wider conversation again, due to the resurgence of vinyl. It's rare that one of the countless stories on vinyl doesn't bring up the issue of "better sound quality," or that people interviewed as to why they are in to vinyl again, don't mention it as among the motivations and pleasures they seek in the format.

And I have seen that the reach of vinyl far exceeds that of the typical audiophile community, into the more general public. There are many more people who have now discovered they actually pay attention somewhat to the sonic experience, and some number of those having dipped their feet in, feel motivated to eye upgrading to better sound sooner or later.

And the move made from many newly bitten by the vinyl bug from listening to digital music via a phone on the typical cheap earbuds to a decent new turntable and reasonable speakers are surely an upgrade in sound quality in some cases. It may not be the upgrade in terms of accuracy they could have if focusing on a digital front end and upgrading speakers etc. But I'm sure people used to listening on their crappy laptops or bad earbuds are actually discovering "sound quality" to some degree, if they have chosen a decent turntable and passable speakers/amp.

I've never been one to proselytize about high end gear or the audiophile hobby in particular. Never truly understood the desire "how do we get more people interested in better audio gear?" Why? Why should we bother proselytizing to hook anyone else in to this hobby? I don't think knitting clubs sit around trying to figure out how they can get more people knitting. Other people have their gigs. So be it.

But at the same time misery-loves-company, and it is somewhat nice as an audiophile to see the conversation about and concern with sound quality spreading out in to the "normal" public again to some degree, even if it comes with caveats.
 

TG1

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On the 'what are you listening to now' thread I mentioned Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto with Annie Fischer as the soloist. I got two copies, buying the second because the first was too mucked up. Second copy had hardly been played I think. Total expenditure for both copies £1.50.
La Boheme on the EMI Angel series cost £1. Got tons of records like that at that price, mostly in very good condition, because I think what is happening is that people are dying off and their relatives are boxing up their record collections and dumping them at the nearest charity shop.
That's what made me get a record player. So the appeal of vinyl is the availability of recordings by superb artists.
People on here will know how it happens, I am just guessing, but I imagine that when EMI wanted to record La Boheme for release on LP they will have gone to enormous trouble, and no small expense, to send their best recording engineer(s) to Rome to record it. Isn;t that why it sounds so good despite the limitations of my set up? By contrast I listened to a live broadcast on Radio 3 FM a while back and it was absolutely terrible. It sounded like someone had just plonked a single microphone down in front of the orchestra and hoped for the best. Since the BBC is cash strapped I expect it was cost cutting. Since they broadcast a lot of stuff like that I don't expect them to go to the trouble EMI would have gone to back in their heyday.
The LP came out in 1964. If a digital version was to be made, what would the source material be, and could the digital version be any better than this set of LPs which cost me £1? My point is that what I have on LP is a unique performance on near mint vinyl for the cost of a small Mars bar.
 
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