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Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf RoomPerfect EQ

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amirm

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So, this mediocre 'DAC' and amplifier was able to drive your Revel Salon's with ease and gave you the tendency to re-listen your entire music library again... :cool:
No. This is what I said:

Nearly 20 years ago I had my first experience with room correction courtesy of a now defunct company, TacT. I remember being startled with what I heard. The transformation is incredible. I forever became convinced that room equalization is mandatory in any home system. I tell you this story because the RoomPerfect was just the same. As soon as I turned on the Focus mode, the (somewhat) boomy bass disappeared, resolution in bass became much higher (allowing individual tones to be distinguished). Soundstage opened up with sound losing its congested character. Everything you think "hifi" is, is applied yet again to your system. You want to sit there and re-listen to your entire library again.

I didn't say I wanted to re-listen to my library that but sure, would have been happy to listen more. What I explained was for people who don't know the positive effect of competent room equalization. There is no new revelation for me as I deploy competent room correction.

It is true that room equalization erases many engineering sins elsewhere. Its effect is immediately audible and requires no expertise whatsoever unlike hearing non-linear distortions. So why measure? We measure to show how well engineered a product is. That is the impression companies leave in their marketing material when they are charging thousands of dollars for an audio produce. Many people buy them on that basis, outside of other features such as room equalization. To the extent measurements don't show that to be true, then the customer is entitled to that data and not use that to bias themselves into thinking the sound is better than it is (or better than other alternatives).

Importantly, I am hoping at some point we start a new chapter where designs are verified to be high performance, measurements are posted by manufacturers, and customers can be sure of what they are buying.

Talking points like you are creating are non-constructives and help protect the current situation where performance is left on the table for no reason whatsoever. It is not like the product is cheaper because of it.
 
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amirm

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So, this mediocre 'DAC' and amplifier was able to drive your Revel Salon's with ease and gave you the tendency to re-listen your entire music library again... :cool:
I also didn't say it drove my speakers with ease. I said:

My everyday amplifiers are the two Mark Levinson No 53 monoblocks flanking the Revel Salon 2 speakers which were used for this testing. Those beasts have 500 watts into 8 ohm and 1000 watts into 4 ohm. In listening tests, the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 got plenty loud although I had it pretty close to 0 dB at times. Again, this is a huge space so it takes fair bit of power to fill it and shake my seat. :D

There have been times when I pushed my own amp to the limit -- a place that Lyngdorf cannot go. So your statement is exaggeration of what I said but for most people, it would be true that there is plenty of power there.
 

Sander_web

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No. This is what I said:



I didn't say I wanted to re-listen to my library that but sure, would have been happy to listen more. What I explained was for people who don't know the positive effect of competent room equalization. There is no new revelation for me as I deploy competent room correction.

It is true that room equalization erases many engineering sins elsewhere. Its effect is immediately audible and requires no expertise whatsoever unlike hearing non-linear distortions. So why measure? We measure to show how well engineered a product is. That is the impression companies leave in their marketing material when they are charging thousands of dollars for an audio produce. Many people buy them on that basis, outside of other features such as room equalization. To the extent measurements don't show that to be true, then the customer is entitled to that data and not use that to bias themselves into thinking the sound is better than it is (or better than other alternatives).

Importantly, I am hoping at some point we start a new chapter where designs are verified to be high performance, measurements are posted by manufacturers, and customers can be sure of what they are buying.

Talking points like you are creating are non-constructives and help protect the current situation where performance is left on the table for no reason whatsoever. It is not like the product is cheaper because of it.

My points over at the other Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 thread were very constructive but you did act like teflon when I questioned your assumptions and approach:

- The TDAI-3400 is NOT designed as a conventional DAC so it is meaningless to test it for this function the way you did, even offensive to the manufacturer. It does NOT belong on your SINAD list.
- You couldn't tell if noise injecting functions (Wifi, Bluetooth etc - build in for convenience) and ICC were disabled during your testing and if you used the latest firmware. To me it seems the best approach would be to test all equipment as bare as possible to make outcomes as comparable as possible. Or alternatively test with and without functions engaged and make special notice of this. And respect a manufacturers possibility to solve problems with firmware updates.
- You did not question if you tested a faulty unit, even after you discovered that ONLY ONE CHANNEL acted completely out of your expectations. Every self-respecting and professional researcher would do this before publicising results. Just to make sure. The need to return the unit to its owner is no excuse.

I can go on but I won't. My remark two posts back was meant to be a little tease but apparently you felt the need to react the way you did.

There is also a lot to say about the way you tested the Lyngdorf for its room correction skills. For the best results Lyngdorf's first advise is - I know counterintuitive - to place your speakers very close to the front wall. This is to keep the delay of reflections to a minimum. RoomPerfect compensates for the excessive amount of low frequenties, typical for this speaker setup. Positioning the speakers close to the front wall creates the most dynamical en optimal result. AGAIN my question: how good do you do your homework before you test?

May be this is unexpected but I really like the concept of your work and I think it is a valuable addition to other audio-related websites. Only, the outcomes would be a lot more meaningful if you filtered feedback and criticism to improve your methods in stead of trying to fight them. I am already a long time lurker but only active since a product I actually own became subject of your tests.
 
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amirm

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- The TDAI-3400 is NOT designed as a conventional DAC so it is meaningless to test it for this function the way you did, even offensive to the manufacturer. It does NOT belong on your SINAD list.
Nothing about that is clear on manufacturer's website. Nor to any owner that doesn't sit there and read forum posts about the product day in and day out.

- You couldn't tell if noise injecting functions (Wifi, Bluetooth etc - build in for convenience) and ICC were disabled during your testing and if you used the latest firmware. To me it seems the best approach would be to test all equipment as bare as possible to make outcomes as comparable as possible. Or alternatively test with and without functions engaged and make special notice of this. And respect a manufacturers possibility to solve problems with firmware updates.
What? A high-end product better have excellent isolation between its subsystems. It is not my job to help it get better measurements by shutting things off.

As to shutting options off, here is what I said in my review:
I reset the unit to factory to make sure no equalization was in there.

If the company leaves something still on that impacts performance, then what is going to happen, is going to happen with respect to measurements.

- You did not question if you tested a faulty unit, even after you discovered that ONLY ONE CHANNEL acted completely out of your expectations. Every self-respecting and professional researcher would do this before publicising results. Just to make sure. The need to return the unit to its owner is no excuse.
It is very common for one channel to perform differently than another. It happens routinely in headphone amps and power amplifiers. Here is one from a recent review:

index.php


Notice the difference in the two channels in blue. That doesn't indicate an amplifier or entire unit is broken. I have repaired literally hundreds of amplifiers in my life. It is how I put myself through college. I know an amplifier when it is broken, and when it is not. As I explained when this defense was put forward that I would perform listening tests as confirmation. I did that in this thread and the unit sounds absolutely fine.

Now, if you think the unit is broken, please coordinate with its owner to pay his shipping cost to and from Lyngdorf. They can confirm the operation of the unit or fine what is broken in it. It is not my job to chase ghosts when I have no suspicion of one existing in the first place.

May be this is unexpected but I really like the concept of your work and I think it is a valuable addition to other audio-related websites. Only, the outcomes would be a lot more meaningful if you filtered feedback and criticism to improve your methods in stead of trying to fight them. I am already a long time lurker but only active since a product I actually own became subject of your tests.
I perform the most interactive testing of anyone. I routinely run additional tests asked by members. What I don't respond to is hostile questioning and plain defense of a product just because an owner doesn't want to hear bad news about it. In this case, the actual owner is perfectly fine with the outcome which is kudos to him. I appreciate your pain in this regard but I am a direct and straight shooter in this. Not going to make excuses for product performance no matter what.

Instead of venting your frustrations at me, contact Lyngdorf and ask them to run the same measurements. One of three things will happen:

1. They don't have the gear to measure them which would right away tell you something.

2. They run measurements that agree with mine and hopefully then work on improving the product.

3. They run measurements that dispute mine. In this case, I would be delighted to work with them to figure out what is wrong with their measurements or mine.

Just protesting here with rude tone doesn't accomplish anything here. And frankly is illogical. It is not like you had seen the type of measurements I have ran to have an expectation that results should be different. You are just going by your gut that results must be wrong and therefore my competence should be questioned. And what proof do you have that? None that I can see.

I don't celebrate when products don't do well. In the case of this brand, I actually expect to get grief from their sister company with whom we do business with, and whose CEO I know personally. So don't be walking around thinking I want to be critical in my work. Ultimately my goal is to earn the trust of membership that whatever the measurements show, is the truth and the facts. Everything else is an attempt to cloud that which I don't appreciate any more than you calling my competence into question.
 

Frank Dernie

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I am already a long time lurker but only active since a product I actually own became subject of your tests.
With all due respect I think this is, and always will be, a typical situation.
Nobody likes to see a piece of kit they own and like criticised.
I am a Devialet owner. If this was measured and found wanting maybe I would be annoyed, otoh, personally I read the results of all the tests and judge them against my own knowledge and experience. I do like to know how well engineered something is, but well and adequate are not always the same, look at HQPlayer, superb piece of kit producing results orders of magnitude “better” than necessary.
OTOH after over 50 years of making music recordings I know there is never, in a single music recording, dynamic range which exceeds 16-bits, and 10 or 11 is more like it, and this on simply miked classical music. Recording pop music 6 bits is plenty apart from the quiet bits between tracks.
So I look at the basic results based on my recording experience and despite the fact that this device is far from perfect it is a requestably good approximation of perfect for use with music in my opinion, if not Amir’s, so I would not be put off buying one by these test results, despite being slightly disappointed by them.
Is it expensive for what it is? Many people will think so but for me, if the room correction works and it is a nice single box solution, it doesn’t seem to bad to me in its nicely made case.
The Devialet I’d quite pricy but for me the beautifully made casing and particularly remote with a rotary volume control made it worth it for me. Such measurements as I have seen show it to be pretty good too. One day they may even have room correction built in...
 

Sander_web

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Nothing about that is clear on manufacturer's website. Nor to any owner that doesn't sit there and read forum posts about the product day in and day out....

As I said, like teflon. And you, wisely, didn't react on the part about how you did test RoomPerfect.

I checked the manufacturers website and it is very clear. Nothing said about it being a DAC or preamp. It is positioned as an integrated amplifier and audio processor with digital and (optional) high-end analogue inputs. It is designed to have enough power to act as a stand-alone unit. If you wan't to drive a separate analogue power amplifier or monoblocks, search elsewhere. By design it can act as as preamp to digital amplifiers on a high level but no mentioning of this on their website either.

And you don't get my standpoint. I am not an owner who doesn't want te hear bad thing about something I bought. If it measures bad, it measures bad. But I am critical. And your approach with this product is really off. With other product's I couldn't tell because I don't know them that well. This makes me questioning the reliability of your testing in general. My advice: immerse yourself in a product, take more time.
 

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You can criticise my wife but not my Hi-Fi.
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Sander_web

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With all due respect I think this is, and always will be, a typical situation.
Nobody likes to see a piece of kit they own and like criticised.
I am a Devialet owner. If this was measured and found wanting maybe I would be annoyed, otoh, personally I read the results of all the tests and judge them against my own knowledge and experience. I do like to know how well engineered something is, but well and adequate are not always the same, look at HQPlayer, superb piece of kit producing results orders of magnitude “better” than necessary.
OTOH after over 50 years of making music recordings I know there is never, in a single music recording, dynamic range which exceeds 16-bits, and 10 or 11 is more like it, and this on simply miked classical music. Recording pop music 6 bits is plenty apart from the quiet bits between tracks.
So I look at the basic results based on my recording experience and despite the fact that this device is far from perfect it is a requestably good approximation of perfect for use with music in my opinion, if not Amir’s, so I would not be put off buying one by these test results, despite being slightly disappointed by them.
Is it expensive for what it is? Many people will think so but for me, if the room correction works and it is a nice single box solution, it doesn’t seem to bad to me in its nicely made case.
The Devialet I’d quite pricy but for me the beautifully made casing and particularly remote with a rotary volume control made it worth it for me. Such measurements as I have seen show it to be pretty good too. One day they may even have room correction built in...

Ah, this is a good case. What would you think if Amir's measured your Devialet as a stand alone DAC (which it isn't) via its analogue pre-out? This is what Devialet has to say about it.
 

BYRTT

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Ah, this is a good case. What would you think if Amir's measured your Devialet as a stand alone DAC (which it isn't) via its analogue pre-out?.....

Transperence and then some transperence :)...

There is more over there but lets take sinus for TDAI-3400 is this a good case, even the blue trace is nothing but grass where example at right is a textbook example:

1000a.png


One user over there showed below objective group delay of a Lyngdorf DPA-1 unit in neutral or bypass mode, what is that going on there as example textbook bandpass example at right is a butterworth 2nd order 20Hz-20kHz (blue) plus 2Hz-20kHz (red):

1000b.png


Honestly why seek this as a new normal praise it with :) when it deserve a :mad:.....
 

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Ah, this is a good case. What would you think if Amir's measured your Devialet as a stand alone DAC (which it isn't) via its analogue pre-out? This is what Devialet has to say about it.
Yes, I know it would be stupid. People have even proposed using it with a different power amp which is spectacularly inappropriate too.
 

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I've owned several room equalization products, ones with Dirac, the DSpeaker antimode 2.0, and a receiver with anthem room correction. I use REW to validate the results of my room corrections. My favorite of these products is Dirac, its by far the most powerful. The downside is you can also make a mess of things if you don't know what you're doing. The Anthem room correction dominates in the out of the box just letting do its thing and not fussing with the results category but it really doesn't allow much customization. the DSpeaker was my least favorite, and while it was still a big improvement over no room correction i felt like it lagged behind the other products. I would love to play with a Trinnov, but its not in the budget right now.
 
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1wingshooter

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in regards to the Lyngdorf not performing well as a DAC, it should be tested in a way in which most users are going to use the product, who cares what the manufacturer calls it. I submitted the Linn for review which does a whole lot more than a stand alone DAC including their version of room correction, digital streaming etc. You could argue it didn't perform high enough to justify the price if you only look at the DAC performance. The results are the results If you can't handle the objective criticism of your favorite product, go read the absolute sound where everything they review is amazing.
 
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amirm

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I checked the manufacturers website and it is very clear. Nothing said about it being a DAC or preamp.
Here is the manual:

1551758749332.png


There is no mention of standard outputs being throw-away or anything like that.

And you don't get my standpoint. I am not an owner who doesn't want te hear bad thing about something I bought. If it measures bad, it measures bad. But I am critical. And your approach with this product is really off.
After decades of owning, using and measuring processors and AVRs, my approach is dead standard. My first processor was the Lexicon DC-1, circa 1997. When any product has analog outputs, it is a valid interconnection that is assumed to perform as well as the rest of the unit. If there is restriction there, say in sample rate or bit depth, then it is documented by the manufacturer. No such documentation exist here and thankfully so.

I am on the side of consumers. You are coming across as a manufacturer apologist. That is always going to put you in conflict with me. You need to advocate for consumers and there, more data is always good.
 

Sander_web

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Here is the manual:

View attachment 23032

There is no mention of standard outputs being throw-away or anything like that.


After decades of owning, using and measuring processors and AVRs, my approach is dead standard. My first processor was the Lexicon DC-1, circa 1997. When any product has analog outputs, it is a valid interconnection that is assumed to perform as well as the rest of the unit. If there is restriction there, say in sample rate or bit depth, then it is documented by the manufacturer. No such documentation exist here and thankfully so.

I am on the side of consumers. You are coming across as a manufacturer apologist. That is always going to put you in conflict with me. You need to advocate for consumers and there, more data is always good.

You keep repeating yourself and I am out of arguments. Please go on this way if you do not really want to be taken seriously by the audio-community except for a handful of yes-men.

Btw, yes the headphone amplifier in the TDAI-3400 sucks, why didn't you measure this feature and rank it against TOTL headphone amplifiers?
 
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Panelhead

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I learned (over several years) how to maximize the Room Perfect feature First was only feed it 96/24 and not use the chip based hardware ASYNCHRONOUS converter to change bit depth and sample rate. It still routed through the circuit.
That is one of the reasons I moved on to my current converter. But back in 2009 or so it was a game changer.
 

Samoyed

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You keep repeating yourself and I am out of arguments. Please go on this way if you do not really want to be taken seriously by the audio-community except for a handful of yes-men.

Btw, yes the headphone amplifier in the TDAI-3400 sucks, why didn't you measure this feature and rank it against TOTL headphone amplifiers?
Yes, to Amir.
 

Krunok

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Just accept the facts, the 3400 measures poorly, especially for a $6500 device.

It measured according to specs declared by manufacturer. At the time this device was designed these specs were considered not only absolutely adequate but top class. These specs remain adequate today, but today you can get cheaper device with better specs. That is called progress and it happens with every piece of technology around us, not only with HiFi equipment. So let's not make big fuss about such obvious stuff.
 
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