Evidence-based Speaker Designs

[MattHooper]

If I understand what you are getting at, and I'm not sure I do I would suggest this has more to do with the microphone set up on a recording.

No because the same recordings will sound different on different speakers. Thinner, reduced in scale on one vs another.

If you are talking tonal richness then that's more frequency response. A wide baffle will have different baffle step characteristics.

Frequency response is an obvious part of it. But it doesn't seem to me to be the whole explanation. After all, take a floor standing speaker that measures neutral from 20 - 20 and play a well mic'd drum set through it. Compare that to a massive PA system that also measures flat. The massive PA system will produce a drum set with far more scale - larger than life if anything - even though both systems may measure flat in frequency response.

I am wondering how the baffle-step issue may or may not come in to play in explaining the characteristics I'm talking about.

I did a lot of comparing of two different speakers, the Joseph Audio Perspectives:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker

And the Devore Fidelity 0/93 speakers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker

As you can see the JA speakers are the classic slim floor standing design using two smaller woofers, the Devores go the other way with a wide baffle and single bigger woofer. The rated frequency response for both speakers is very similar, so I don't see a major bass-depth advantage.

The JA speakers (which I love) cast a mammoth soundstage for their size. They are known for it. The Devore speakers don't cast as deep, wide and enveloping soundstage.

But a very distinct characteristic difference in their sound is the Devores just produce instruments and voices that sound "bigger, fuller, more life-sized and substantial." A sax sounds bigger more life-sized. A piano - everything from the "keys" to the sense of a piano's resonating body sounds more life-sized. Drums - much more like a real-sized drum set than the Perspective's presentation.

People here will be much better than I am at interpreting the speaker measurements, so here's the Joseph Audio Perspective Stereophile measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker-measurements

And here are the Devore 0/93 measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker-measurements

Is there anything in there that predicts the Devores would produce more life-sized sonic impressions than the Joseph speakers? Is there anything about the choice of wider baffle plus bigger single woofer vs the JA's slim design and two smaller woofers, that would suggest the characteristics I'm talking about?

The thing is, the Devores sounded bigger no matter what instrument played, no matter where in the frequency range. Drum cymbals sounded bigger, a wood block being hit sounded life-sized, but smaller than life on the JA speakers, flute, piccolo, violin strings being plucked, anything that lives more in the upper frequencies, from top to bottom whatever came out of the Devores sounded bigger, weightier, more substantial.

 

[andreasmaaan]

@MattHooper the two speakers of course have very different polar responses, and although both seem to have somewhat similar bass extension, axial frequency response is a significant enough variable to not be ruled out either IMHO. Of course in a case like this, literally every possible condition is varied, making it hard to draw any conclusions...

But the first thing to clarify is: were you listening to these speakers in the same room and set up in the same way?

 

[MattHooper]

@MattHooper the two speakers of course have very different polar responses, and although both seem to have somewhat similar bass extension, axial frequency response is a significant enough variable to not be ruled out either IMHO. Of course in a case like this, literally every possible condition is varied, making it hard to draw any conclusions...

But the first thing to clarify is: were you listening to these speakers in the same room and set up in the same way?

Different but similar rooms, set up in the same way.


I understand the possible variables when auditioning speakers and though can't of course make all conditions the same, I seek to minimize the variables as best I can. To that end I audition a set of speakers from a variety of positions - both speaker-to-room positions and listener-to-speaker positions. I usually have the speakers pulled well out from a back wall, experiment with various widths/toe-in, and make sure to try a variety of listening positions - from distant (more room) to nearfield (more direct sound, less room influence) and in between. I also listen from standing, crouching, off-axis, you name it. This seems to actually work fairly well all things considered, as I am rarely surprised by the sound of a speaker from one room to another, or between the sound I heard in the store via this method and how it sounds when I get it home.


So all that said, when both speakers were listened to in this variety of ways, the impression I spoke of remained consistent.


FWIW...I've also had those Joseph speakers in my own home and Harbeth SuperHL5plus speakers in the same positions, same equipment, same room, and there was a similar "bigger instrument" sound from the wider Harbeths as well.

I understand on a site like this people would much prefer to talk about results obtained under optimally controlled conditions, and I understand if anyone just wants to ignore the issue based on my subjective impressions. It seems to be a very consistent phenomenon reported by those hearing the Devore speakers - every single review and almost all user reports I've ever seen have mentioned the sonic characteristics I'm speaking of.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Different but similar rooms, set up in the same way.


I understand the possible variables when auditioning speakers and though can't of course make all conditions the same, I seek to minimize the variables as best I can. To that end I audition a set of speakers from a variety of positions - both speaker-to-room positions and listener-to-speaker positions. I usually have the speakers pulled well out from a back wall, experiment with various widths/toe-in, and make sure to try a variety of listening positions - from distant (more room) to nearfield (more direct sound, less room influence) and in between. I also listen from standing, crouching, off-axis, you name it. This seems to actually work fairly well all things considered, as I am rarely surprised by the sound of a speaker from one room to another, or between the sound I heard in the store via this method and how it sounds when I get it home.


So all that said, when both speakers were listened to in this variety of ways, the impression I spoke of remained consistent.


FWIW...I've also had those Joseph speakers in my own home and Harbeth SuperHL5plus speakers in the same positions, same equipment, same room, and there was a similar "bigger instrument" sound from the wider Harbeths as well.

I understand on a site like this people would much prefer to talk about results obtained under optimally controlled conditions, and I understand if anyone just wants to ignore the issue based on my subjective impressions. It seems to be a very consistent phenomenon reported by those hearing the Devore speakers - every single review and almost all user reports I've ever seen have mentioned the sonic characteristics I'm speaking of.

Yeh actually, I can empathise. I've always subjectively preferred larger baffled-speakers, and as discussed here there are technical/theoretical arguments in their favour (and one or two against of course). I'm reluctant to draw conclusions though - perhaps I'm too typical of this site

 

[March Audio]

Different but similar rooms, set up in the same way.


I understand the possible variables when auditioning speakers and though can't of course make all conditions the same, I seek to minimize the variables as best I can. To that end I audition a set of speakers from a variety of positions - both speaker-to-room positions and listener-to-speaker positions. I usually have the speakers pulled well out from a back wall, experiment with various widths/toe-in, and make sure to try a variety of listening positions - from distant (more room) to nearfield (more direct sound, less room influence) and in between. I also listen from standing, crouching, off-axis, you name it. This seems to actually work fairly well all things considered, as I am rarely surprised by the sound of a speaker from one room to another, or between the sound I heard in the store via this method and how it sounds when I get it home.


So all that said, when both speakers were listened to in this variety of ways, the impression I spoke of remained consistent.


FWIW...I've also had those Joseph speakers in my own home and Harbeth SuperHL5plus speakers in the same positions, same equipment, same room, and there was a similar "bigger instrument" sound from the wider Harbeths as well.

I understand on a site like this people would much prefer to talk about results obtained under optimally controlled conditions, and I understand if anyone just wants to ignore the issue based on my subjective impressions. It seems to be a very consistent phenomenon reported by those hearing the Devore speakers - every single review and almost all user reports I've ever seen have mentioned the sonic characteristics I'm speaking of.

One thing that will affect the sense of envelopment is the room reflectivity. At the first reflection point the more the absorption the more the soundstage can concentrate in the middle - but this will also depend on the speaker dispersion. Different rooms are not a good starting place if you are trying to compare.

In my experience PA systems are far from flat Power and directivity all play in to this.

I dont think people want to ignore the subjective impressions, its just a case that we know often they can be very flawed. Not saying yours are necessarily flawed, just a case of it is extremely difficult to know exactly what you are referring to. Im still not sure.


But a very distinct characteristic difference in their sound is the Devores just produce instruments and voices that sound "bigger, fuller, more life-sized and substantial." A sax sounds bigger more life-sized. A piano - everything from the "keys" to the sense of a piano's resonating body sounds more life-sized. Drums - much more like a real-sized drum set than the Perspective's presentation.

My opinion FWIW, is that this can be explained by their frequency response characteristics. The Devores have a big emphasis at 50 to 60Hz which may emphasise drums and a prominent lower mid around 1kHz. Im afraid its not what I would call a neutral speaker. Its erm... well.. all a bit wonky to say the least

Its not wrong to like the presentation of the above speaker, but it might be worth auditioning a known neutral speaker to have a reference.

 

[MattHooper]

Thanks again!

One thing that will affect the sense of envelopment is the room reflectivity. At the first reflection point the more the absorption the more the soundstage can concentrate in the middle - but this will also depend on the speaker dispersion.

Absolutely! I have owned many different types of speakers, and still own Thiel speakers (last Jim Thiel generation), Spendor, Waveform, and MBL omnis. And I have a room that allows me to be flexible about the reflectivity - I play with diffusion, absorption etc on side walls often to play around with acoustics. Fun stuff!

Different rooms are not a good starting place if you are trying to compare.

Yup. Though as I mentioned, some of it can be mitigated to a useful degree, at least I find so.

In my experience PA systems are far from flat Power and directivity all play in to this.

Yes, I was speaking of a thought experiment "in principle." But I could have also mentioned professional mixing theaters (I work in post production sound). I've mixed in plenty of really big mixing theaters, all extremely expensive and set up/pinked/dialed in for flat by acousticians etc. Lots of big speakers produce a whole different scale of sound, even putting aside frequency response as a variable. I was just trying to make the obvious point as to what I was getting at by the fact one speaker system produces the impression of greater size/scale than another.

I dont think people want to ignore the subjective impressions, its just a case that we know often they can be very flawed. Not saying yours are necessarily flawed, just a case of it is extremely difficult to know exactly what you are referring to. Im still not sure.

Understood and agreed.

My opinion FWIW, is that this can be explained by their frequency response characteristics. The Devores have a big emphasis at 50 to 60Hz which may emphasise drums and a prominent lower mid around 1kHz. Im afraid its not what I would call a neutral speaker. Its erm... well.. all a bit wonky to say the least

Interesting, thanks. So you think it's more about the frequency response, and the baffle/woofer design wouldn't contribute to the way the sound launches in terms of giving a sense of fullness?

Its not wrong to like the presentation of the above speaker, but it might be worth auditioning a known neutral speaker to have a reference.


View attachment 22992

I hear some pretty neutral sound in good soundstages.

As for domestic: My waveform speakers are very neutral. Waveform speakers, designed at the NRC, were the notoriously prickly Peter Aczel's (The Audio Critic) most highly lauded speaker brand. The Thiels are pretty good too. I also auditioned a number of Revel speakers (e.g. Performa series) while auditioning the Devores. Also, the Joseph Audio speakers are more neutral than many other high end speakers. The smaller Joseph Audio Pulsars that I also auditioned were measured at Soundstage:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

Thanks for your input!

 

[March Audio]

Thanks again!

Interesting, thanks. So you think it's more about the frequency response, and the baffle/woofer design wouldn't contribute to the way the sound launches in terms of giving a sense of fullness?


Thanks for your input!

Well, the Devores response is far enough away from neutral that it will make any conclusion about baffle/woofer very difficult IMO.

However if the other neutral speakers you listen to dont have the same effect as the devores, then my first suspicion would be the frequency response rather than looking for more esoteric explanations.

 

[Juhazi]

I believe that the body that Matt looks for, comes from large cone area - Orangutan has 1x10", Joseph 2x5.5" drivers (2/1 ratio of area!)
Baffle width/area is secondary but as well works for orangutan to give more direct sound below 800Hz.

March showed the Atkinson's room response which shows worse floor reflection than the other. However room response at Matt's must be different.

My favourite speakers (diy) use a 12" midrange playing 180-800Hz (LR2), and despite of being dipole give very nice body to sound! Tenor saxophone is the instrument i love to hear!

Try this from Timo Lassy

 

[Soniclife]

No because the same recordings will sound different on different speakers. Thinner, reduced in scale on one vs another.



Frequency response is an obvious part of it. But it doesn't seem to me to be the whole explanation. After all, take a floor standing speaker that measures neutral from 20 - 20 and play a well mic'd drum set through it. Compare that to a massive PA system that also measures flat. The massive PA system will produce a drum set with far more scale - larger than life if anything - even though both systems may measure flat in frequency response.

I am wondering how the baffle-step issue may or may not come in to play in explaining the characteristics I'm talking about.

I did a lot of comparing of two different speakers, the Joseph Audio Perspectives:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker

And the Devore Fidelity 0/93 speakers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker

As you can see the JA speakers are the classic slim floor standing design using two smaller woofers, the Devores go the other way with a wide baffle and single bigger woofer. The rated frequency response for both speakers is very similar, so I don't see a major bass-depth advantage.

The JA speakers (which I love) cast a mammoth soundstage for their size. They are known for it. The Devore speakers don't cast as deep, wide and enveloping soundstage.

But a very distinct characteristic difference in their sound is the Devores just produce instruments and voices that sound "bigger, fuller, more life-sized and substantial." A sax sounds bigger more life-sized. A piano - everything from the "keys" to the sense of a piano's resonating body sounds more life-sized. Drums - much more like a real-sized drum set than the Perspective's presentation.

People here will be much better than I am at interpreting the speaker measurements, so here's the Joseph Audio Perspective Stereophile measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker-measurements

And here are the Devore 0/93 measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker-measurements

Is there anything in there that predicts the Devores would produce more life-sized sonic impressions than the Joseph speakers? Is there anything about the choice of wider baffle plus bigger single woofer vs the JA's slim design and two smaller woofers, that would suggest the characteristics I'm talking about?

The thing is, the Devores sounded bigger no matter what instrument played, no matter where in the frequency range. Drum cymbals sounded bigger, a wood block being hit sounded life-sized, but smaller than life on the JA speakers, flute, piccolo, violin strings being plucked, anything that lives more in the upper frequencies, from top to bottom whatever came out of the Devores sounded bigger, weightier, more substantial.

How confident are you the volume at the listening position was the same? The 2 speakers have a big difference in sensitivity so will require very different power from an amp, I'm constantly amazed just how much more power low sensitivity speakers need.

Distortion and compression are important measurements missing from the Stereophile reviews, given that two 5.5"* drivers are nowhere near the equivalent displacement of a 10" driver I would expect power handling to be very limited in the JAs in comparison, and when turned up and that alone might make then sound small, especially if they produce lots of odd order distortion, as they probably do.

*By my quick guess you would need five or six 5.5" drivers to equal a single 10".

Then there is the very strong midrange output from the port in the O93, only around 5db down on it main output at some frequencies, what this does to the sound I really don't know, I can see it possibly adding reverb of a sort, which may contribute to sounding larger.

 

[MattHooper]

How confident are you the volume at the listening position was the same? The 2 speakers have a big difference in sensitivity so will require very different power from an amp, I'm constantly amazed just how much more power low sensitivity speakers need.

Distortion and compression are important measurements missing from the Stereophile reviews, given that two 5.5"* drivers are nowhere near the equivalent displacement of a 10" driver I would expect power handling to be very limited in the JAs in comparison, and when turned up and that alone might make then sound small, especially if they produce lots of odd order distortion, as they probably do.

*By my quick guess you would need five or six 5.5" drivers to equal a single 10".

Then there is the very strong midrange output from the port in the O93, only around 5db down on it main output at some frequencies, what this does to the sound I really don't know, I can see it possibly adding reverb of a sort, which may contribute to sounding larger.

I didn't use a sound meter in that case, though I often do at home. For listening sessions, as I have fairly sensitive ears, I do not listen very loud at all. I often use my iphone sound meter app (SoundMeter from FaberAcoustical) at home to check sound levels and I consistantly end up with a comfort zone of about 70 dB. I dialed in each speaker at the audition to my comfort zone so I think it's pretty likely they were similar volume. But as I usually do, I also evaluated them at soft and quite loud volumes to see how they handle that. But in general I was putting very little stress on either speaker (or amp) in terms of volume. FWIW...

Interesting about the smaller drivers vs the bigger woofer. I've seen various opinions from people who make speakers (including DIYers), some saying it's all about the frequency response, others claiming that you just can't mimic the sound of larger drivers with a couple of smaller drivers even IF the frequency reponse of the speakers are essentially the same. That said, the Joseph small floor standing speakers I linked to are renowned for their surprising bass response and they sure did sound substantial, with good solidity and impact. Didn't seem to give up much if anything to the Devores in that regard. (I understand the Josephs use a particularly powerful "long throw" motor for the woofers to help excell in the bass). It was only in the overall sound - at any volume - that this "bigger, fuller sound" - at any frequency!- seemed to make itself clear on the Devores.

Again, when the talk comes up of the sound being bigger due to some bass hump in the Devore, I wonder how that figures in to the impression that everything, at any frequency, sounded "bigger" on the Devores. I played tracks that litterally started with just drum cymbals, or a wood block, or a high pitched flute, and those instruments sounded consistantly bigger, more life sized, than on the slim Joseph speakers. So that part puzzles me if it's *only* going to be due to a frequency response hump somewhere in the bass region.

 

[March Audio]

I didn't use a sound meter in that case, though I often do at home. For listening sessions, as I have fairly sensitive ears, I do not listen very loud at all. I often use my iphone sound meter app (SoundMeter from FaberAcoustical) at home to check sound levels and I consistantly end up with a comfort zone of about 70 dB. I dialed in each speaker at the audition to my comfort zone so I think it's pretty likely they were similar volume. But as I usually do, I also evaluated them at soft and quite loud volumes to see how they handle that. But in general I was putting very little stress on either speaker (or amp) in terms of volume. FWIW...

Interesting about the smaller drivers vs the bigger woofer. I've seen various opinions from people who make speakers (including DIYers), some saying it's all about the frequency response, others claiming that you just can't mimic the sound of larger drivers with a couple of smaller drivers even IF the frequency reponse of the speakers are essentially the same. That said, the Joseph small floor standing speakers I linked to are renowned for their surprising bass response and they sure did sound substantial, with good solidity and impact. Didn't seem to give up much if anything to the Devores in that regard. (I understand the Josephs use a particularly powerful "long throw" motor for the woofers to help excell in the bass). It was only in the overall sound - at any volume - that this "bigger, fuller sound" - at any frequency!- seemed to make itself clear on the Devores.

Again, when the talk comes up of the sound being bigger due to some bass hump in the Devore, I wonder how that figures in to the impression that everything, at any frequency, sounded "bigger" on the Devores. I played tracks that litterally started with just drum cymbals, or a wood block, or a high pitched flute, and those instruments sounded consistantly bigger, more life sized, than on the slim Joseph speakers. So that part puzzles me if it's *only* going to be due to a frequency response hump somewhere in the bass region.

Driver size has an impact on directivity. Larger means it will become directional at relatively lower frequencies. I will post some graphs later, on phone at moment. So with larger drivers you might have to give more consideration to crossover frequency and matching directionality with the tweeter and possibly the room interaction.

Remember that the devore also has a large mid range boost will will affect your impression of instruments, it's not just the bass peak.

Again with the devores being so devient from neutral I think it difficult to draw any subjective conclusions regarding the effect of larger driver and baffle.

Regarding matching volume, it's critical for making comparisons. Ideally within 0.1 dB, something you just can't judge by ear.

 

[Soniclife]

Regarding matching volume, it's critical for making comparisons. Ideally within 0.1 dB, something you just can't judge by ear

How can you match volume with such different frequency responses?

 

[MattHooper]

As I said, I can not offer controlled, scientific results. It's just a consistent impression I've had, and shared by many others. I thought perhaps maybe some folks here would perhaps know what I'm talking about and have experienced the apparently bigger scale of sound from wide bodied/big driver speakers (and it seems one or two do). If not, ok.

I'm still unsure as to the status of this: whether anyone would agree with the phenomonon I'm speaking of. Or if speaker design theory would suggest that it is either a warranted, or unfounded perception.

 

[March Audio]

How can you match volume with such different frequency responses?

Oh absolutely, you will never match such different speakers to that level of accuracy. Wide range white / pink noise will probably be the best you will achieve.

 

[March Audio]

As I said, I can not offer controlled, scientific results. It's just a consistent impression I've had, and shared by many others. I thought perhaps maybe some folks here would perhaps know what I'm talking about and have experienced the apparently bigger scale of sound from wide bodied/big driver speakers (and it seems one or two do). If not, ok.

I'm still unsure as to the status of this: whether anyone would agree with the phenomonon I'm speaking of. Or if speaker design theory would suggest that it is either a warranted, or unfounded perception.

I have heard lots of speakers but Im not sure I have heard what you are referring to, but Im also not convinced I understand your description. This is obviously one of the issues with subjective descriptions.

Second issue is that without seeing measurements of the other speakers you have listened to, again its impossible to comment on whether this is a real phenomenon, or due to some other characteristic they have in common.

That Devore speaker is pretty flawed in multiple areas, so I wouldnt judge anything against it.

cabinet resonances

messy CSD

lumpy off axis response

port output colouring the lower mid range

I think JA was somewhat gentle in his commentary, especially as this is a very expensive speaker. My view FWIW is that in this instance, looking at the measurements, you are hearing the speaker flaws more than any fundamental design advantage of wide baffle/large driver.

 

[March Audio]

Oh going back to my previous comments about directivity of larger drivers, I think you can see this in the plot where above 500hz the off axis response is falling and then rises up again as the tweeter takes over

see how the other smaller speaker does not do this, although its tweeter does seem to fall off a cliff off axis after 6 kHz

 

[noobie1]

I wouldn't put Jim Thiel's Thiel there. While their design choices do have some empirical basis (insofar as verifiable, though not necessarily audible improvements) - namely time and phase alignment, as well as flat, smooth on-axis response - their off-axis response is exceedingly coloured and distorted. There is not the remotest directivity control to speak of. The importance of smooth dispersion with in-room usage is common knowledge on ASR so I scarcely need to belabour the point.

In holding on to the passive first-order XO dogma (instead of infinitely less compromised and more flexible methods of acheiving time+phase alignment like FIR filtering in DSP), I don't regard Thiel speakers as rationally-defensible. The adherence to dogma in spite of severe compromises in other (more) relevant aspects of sound reproduction is a classic example of missing the forest for the trees.

But I would put the now-defunct post-buyout Thiel that were closer to PSB speakers in design methodology on my list.

Do you know which Thiel speakers have readily available off axis measurements? I see a graph for 1.6 which looks pretty ugly. Curious if the later models are any better.

 

[Ilkless]

Do you know which Thiel speakers have readily available off axis measurements? I see a graph for 1.6 which looks pretty ugly. Curious if the later models are any better.

Thiel 3.7

Thiel TT1 (post-Thiel design by Mark Mason previously of PSB). Discards the first-order dogma for a PSB/Revel approach.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Do you know which Thiel speakers have readily available off axis measurements? I see a graph for 1.6 which looks pretty ugly. Curious if the later models are any better.

Thiel was a favourite of Stereophile and they measured many of their speakers over the years. Google "stereophile thiel measurements" and you'll find at least half a dozen.

 

[noobie1]

Thiel 3.7

Thiel TT1 (post-Thiel design by Mark Mason previously of PSB). Discards the first-order dogma for a PSB/Revel approach.

Am I understanding the 3.7 measurements correctly that the vertical off axis FR is horrible but horizontal is good? It would seem like this won’t be a big deal for critical listening.