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Is this what is wrong with this hobby?

cjfrbw

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andreasmaaan

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There's a Sonos flagship store where I live in Berlin so I was able to listen to the best system they could get together in a room they had specifically built to showcase it, and the sound was very disappointing.

And yes, like you I've heard better offerings from other brands including Bose B&O and Samsung. Haven't heard some of the other brands you mention but am interested in hearing how good this tech can be these days so will be trying to listen to more...

EDIT: it was B&O, not Bose. Brain fart...
 
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andreasmaaan

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JJB70

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Some of the companies appear to be applying a lot of very serious research and analytical work to BT speakers and sound bars. At one time some of these small BT speakers were one trick ponies, I used to listen to Bose speakers and was always taken aback at how a tiny speaker could make so much noise and fill a decent sized room with full bodied sound. However, after that initial reaction I tended to notice that although those little speakers really could fill a decent sized room with pretty full bodied sound the quality was very unimpressive, very boomy and it very quickly became tiresome and irritating. Now however these speakers are sounding much more grown up and balanced.
 

dc655321

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Weirdly, given that Sonos is almost a generic term for wireless and multi-room speakers I am not sure I know anybody who has bought Sonos.

Well, now you do know someone ;-)

I have had Sonos gear for (gulp!) around ten years.
It was not all purchased at the same time, but I have two Play 5 linked in stereo, a Playbar, and a Sub.
For TV, it's the latter two, while for strictly music, I include all speakers.

I'm under no illusion that the sound cannot be improved upon.
It's very "omni", with almost no concrete image to speak of.
But, the system works well for my needs.

There's a Sonos flagship store where I live in Berlin so I was able to listen to the best system they could get together in a room they had specifically built to showcase it, and the sound was very disappointing.

And yes, like you I've heard better offerings from other brands including Bose and Samsung. Haven't heard some of the other brands you mention but am interested in hearing how good this tech can be these days so will be trying to listen to more...

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience, but I'm glad to hear that you're keeping an open mind to these types of audio systems.

If I can find some time to do so, I will take some measurements of my system and we can see where the problems may be.
 

andreasmaaan

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Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience, but I'm glad to hear that you're keeping an open mind to these types of audio systems.

If I can find some time to do so, I will take some measurements of my system and we can see where the problems may be.

That would be interesting, thanks :)

My main criticism of the system I heard was with the tonal balance, which (unless the crossover is defective) is often the easiest issue to fix.
 

Sal1950

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I wouldn't trade my amplifier and speakers for Sonos as I'm not in the market (I am still happy with what I've got). However, should the day come when it dies then I probably will replace it with active speakers. And based on the improvement in sound bars and wireless speakers I can honestly see them fitting my needs and being the more attractive solution when the time comes. Like I say, some of the sound bars with sub-woofers are really very good for listening to music now. Some of the Samsung models are actually pretty impressive without sub-woofers, Samsung seem to be leveraging Harman's speaker expertise to make some very impressive pieces of kit.
You'll have to excuse me my total disdane for the "soundbar" thing. There were many of us in this industry (including JGH) that saw multich audio as a possible path for some renewed health in the "hobby". The hope was a strong interest in home theater would bring along on it's coat-tails a level of excitement for multich music recordings. Never happened for a number of reasons not the least IMHO was the media outlets willing to say that the new soundbar market was a reasonable alternative to a true discreet 5.1 or better system, it's just not. Sit down in good system and listen to some excellent discreet music recordings, the air and feeling of being transported into the hall with the complete immersive ambiance. I really suck at trying to wax lyrical.
In any case the multich music market never took off in any big way and the any hope for a revitalized high fidelity market died with it.. :(

JA: "I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.
JGH: With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left.

JA: As you were so committed to surround, do you feel that the commercial failures of DVD-Audio and SACD could have been avoided?
JGH: I doubt it. No audio product has ever succeeded because it was better, only because it was cheaper, smaller, or easier to use. Your generation of music lovers will probably be the last that even think about fidelity."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/index.html#5zXS04u32MG5Geqw.99

I'll get down off my soapbox of trying to support a "accurate" reproducer of 3D space.
 
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svart-hvitt

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You'll have to excuse me my total disdane for the "soundbar" thing. There were many of us in this industry (including JGH) that saw multich audio as a possible path for some renewed health in the "hobby". The hope was a strong interest in home theater would bring along on it's coat-tails a level of excitement for multich music recordings. Never happened for a number of reasons not the least IMHO was the media outlets willing to say that the new soundbar market was a reasonable alternative to a true discreet 5.1 or better system, it's just not. Sit down in good system and listen to some excellent discreet music recordings, the air and feeling of being transported into the hall with the complete immersive ambiance. I really suck at trying to wax lyrical.
In any case the multich music market never took off in any big way and the any hope for a revitalized high fidelity market died with it.. :(

JA: "I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.
With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left.
As you were so committed to surround, do you feel that the commercial failures of DVD-Audio and SACD could have been avoided?

JGH: I doubt it. No audio product has ever succeeded because it was better, only because it was cheaper, smaller, or easier to use. Your generation of music lovers will probably be the last that even think about fidelity."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/index.html#5zXS04u32MG5Geqw.99

I'll get down off my soapbox of trying to support a "accurate" reproducer of 3D space.

I think audio in cinemas is much better today than yesterday. Maybe mch wasn’t dead after all? Or last convulsion?
 

Sancus

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I think audio in cinemas is much better today than yesterday. Maybe mch wasn’t dead after all? Or last convulsion?

I actually think that quote is accurate for home audio but not for professional audio. It seems to me that professional audio, both in the studio and in venues, has actually seen massive improvements over the years and that current systems do very impressive things.

We may end up at a point where the few serious hifi enthusiasts left will prefer studio and cinema equipment to "soundbars" and other stuff, and the "boutique hifi" industry as a whole will simply die. It is hard to argue that that was anything but a self-inflicted fate, though.

Arguably, this is already the trend, because there's a noticeable subculture of audiophiles who look to and recommend studio monitors for reasonably priced, good home sound long before they look at home hifi brands. If I had to guess, I'd say this group skews younger, and that the buyers of extremely expensive, weird, large, passive, and designed-without-measurements old school hifi speakers are gradually dying off.
 

March Audio

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The high end market has shrunken for a lot of reasons, not just snake oil. It's not just high end, anything fancier than a sound bar has suffered. Today consumers have other distractions like huge flat panel TV's, smartphones, online gaming and social media. Most find these forms of entertainment more engaging than listening to playback of recorded music at very high quality levels. A lot of other things have changed. In the US people used to buy sedans and now all they want are SUV's and pickups. The mass market cruise industry is a relatively recent phenomenon. How did people live without a Starbucks every morning?

Around here we live in a bright spot where audiophiles have some sense of how to get the most for their money, but there aren't that many of us.

This has been an issue for a long time now. "We" inhabit an unusual world compared to the general consumer. The number of people who want to sit down and just listen to music is small in relative terms. I often get asked about the things I do for a living. When I mention one of those things is manufacturing HiFi people more often or not look bemused. No-one knows what a DAC is :) They get their heads around amplifiers, but the whole separates hifi thing is generally a complete enigma to them, especially the younger ones :)
 

restorer-john

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As for "Modern Living", I'm still stuck trying to figure out why everybody just has to have tattoos.

Ironically, tattoos are supposed to highlight your individuality and yet they are so mainstream they merely highlight herd conformity.
 

Ron Texas

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This has been an issue for a long time now. "We" inhabit an unusual world compared to the general consumer. The number of people who want to sit down and just listen to music is small in relative terms. I often get asked about the things I do for a living. When I mention one of those things is manufacturing HiFi people more often or not look bemused. No-one knows what a DAC is :) They get their heads around amplifiers, but the whole separates hifi thing is generally a complete enigma to them, especially the younger ones :)

If it looks like a DAC and quacks like a DAC, it's a DAC. I suppose they don't realize there's one in their mobile phone and another in their TV.
 

cjfrbw

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If it looks like a DAC and quacks like a DAC, it's a DAC. I suppose they don't realize there's one in their mobile phone and another in their TV.
The DAC in my 46" $250 TLC 4k HDR monitor sounds pretty good through headphones, even using HDMI from my Mini Mac. May not measure so hot if one were to do so, but it's very OK for listening to music on headphones.
 

restorer-john

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The problem with the 'hobby' is the real hobbyists are too old, dying off or have 'been there done that'.

It started as a true hobby- building gear from scratch. Over here (long before I was born) there was Radio & Hobbies, which became Radio TV & Hobbies and eventually Electronics Australia. We had Electronics Today International and every month I bought each magazine from about 1972 onwards. The most popular projects were of course audio.

That meant the hobbyist in the house could build something useful, show it to his wife and/or family, get lots of adoration and justify spending money on his hobby.

Then we had kits, complete kits. No more chassis bashing and poorly aligned holes in front panels. Things looked almost commercial. That was the 70/80s.

My first 'proper' amplifier (as opposed to a circuit board stuck to one of my mum's old kitchen boards) was a kit build. A playmaster (EA) design, 40+40W@8ohms (downhill with a breeze). I loved it. It took me a week to make it. My Dad thought it was OK. He was right, it was only OK, once I compared it to commercial offerings. I gave it my little sister and who knows where it is now. Probably landfill knowing her.

1551578614088.png


Mainstream quality offerings got to the point where building your own gear didn't save you money, it cost you money. You paid a significant premium for a poorer performance. The hobbyists got older and wiser. The electronics shops closed up as repair technicians gave up due to lack of parts and low costs of replacement. The local fixit guy was gone. That was the 90s.

The engineers and technicians who wrote the articles, designed the gear and brought us everything that was new in the world of electronics for decades have mostly passed on. The once great magazines are defunct. All the world has now are superficial youtube channels and 'lifestyle' magazine reviews with little or no substance.

This unbelievable (free) archive (I posted this link once before) is a stark reminder of how things have gone downhill. Just go pick a random magazine and read it.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/

EA https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Electronics_Australia_AU.htm
ETI (AU) https://www.americanradiohistory.com/ETI_Magazine-AU.htm

Here you go, the playmaster tuner, amplifier and equalizer- all kits you could build. 1979.

1551579413109.png
 
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garbulky

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For all you naysayers, there has never been a better time for the layperson in audio. And let me finish ... the layperson is absolutely what matters for audio! Not us. If one can get the layperson interested in better audio that's where the win is. As in...the words "sound" HAS to enter their mind. Yes it's that primitive. That's where the win is. And right now it is FANTASTIC.

First of all music and high quality video is EVERYWHERE. It is super accessible. Everybody I know has used Pandora, even some of my aging relatives. Everyone I know has used Youtube. And the ear bud headphones - not the hopeless crap from apple - but the $10 stuff from wally world - is MUCH better. Things like a soundstage exist. Laugh at me, but a soundstage reproduced on speakers took me way too long for me to achieve and I was in to audio!

People have heard of Beats headphones - which are a heck of a lot better than the complete trash that used to be out there. Bluetooth wireless earbuds are everywhere and they aren't complete garbage. Look, this stuff is light years better than the quality the layperson was listening to. Yes it's still far away from what we are used to. Yes, it's really about convenience. Yes you couldn't get me to listen on the stuff most people listen on. But MORE people are listening to MORE audio at BETTER quality than they ever had before. Imo this is the big hope for our future.

I always think what we need is for people to listen to and know that there is something called good sound. Something more than just "it gets louder." Or "there is more bass." And right now this is what is happening. Whether they yet care, I'm not sure about, but they are being exposed to it and this is a good thing! Just the fact that people are buying a soundbar than just listening to tv speakers is amazing to me.
 

restorer-john

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Just the fact that people are buying a soundbar than just listening to tv speakers is amazing to me.

They have no choice. The speakers in flat screen TVs are SO bad that the entire world got fed up.

I think you've forgotten how good the sound was in many CRT TVs. My 85yo Dad still has the 2nd colour TV we bought in 1982 (26"). He keeps it because it still works perfectly and it sounds like a hifi system- and it's only mono! I've given him a couple of flatscreens (42" and a 32") and although he likes the picture, one has a pair of floor standing speakers and an amplifier to give sound that is good enough to comprehend what mumbling actors say on TV these days.

Around 2000, we sold a Panasonic 29" stereo CRT TV called 'The One'. It had sound so good, I used to demonstrate it with a CD player fed into the line inputs. It was phenomenally good.

Here, I found it on youtube!

I don't think people are listening to any more music than we did. We had quality FM broadcasting in the 70s/80s and 90s. Lots of stations broadcasting CD content for free. Now FM is a wasteland of lossy, compressed garbage.

As for headphones, the quality headphones in the 1980s made for Walkmans were better than much of the garbage being sold now. I listen to my boys overpriced cans and they are putrid compared to even an ancient pair of Sony MDR-70s I bought in ~1983. Way more efficient, comfortable and better sounding. Sure, the high end modern expensive cans are considerably better, but not the mass-market stuff- it's trash and always will be.

It's handy to have actual physical references from the 1980s to compare old to new...:

mdr70 (2).jpeg


mdr70 (1).jpeg


I use these old Sonys for the computer. They are so comfortable I often forget I have them on my head- lucky they have about an 8ft cord. :)
 
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Blumlein 88

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I've found listening to movies in stereo that dialogue is still mangled pretty badly. Seems more so than was the case a few years ago. Surround having a center channel cleans that up. I did wonder if you just go mono the dialogue would be fine. So if some people should get some little decent powered speaker and have decent mono for their flat screen.

I agree with John that soundbars became a thing of necessity. Flat screens in built speakers aren't good and simply don't have a chance. I wonder if some companies had simply made a good mono soundbar if most customers would have noticed or cared as long as they now can hear their video sound and hear what actors say.
 

Blumlein 88

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As for "Modern Living", I'm still stuck trying to figure out why everybody just has to have tattoos.
Me too Ray. And don't forget many have piercings. I think I understand the tattoos more than the piercings. Or maybe the fact I think that means I just really don't understand at all.

One girl I saw had a ship's anchor on the outside of her ankle. It ran a chain up her outer thigh where it connected with other tattoos. She said it was to remind her of her Dad who was in the navy, and to remind her to stay anchored to reality. I was thinking if a tattoo of an anchor is your last defense against loosing touch with reality..................and then I paused and thought what if this is necessary for this girl. What does that mean?

Another I've heard more than once is "my tattoos remind me of who I am". Okay.
 

March Audio

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They have no choice. The speakers in flat screen TVs are SO bad that the entire world got fed up.

I think you've forgotten how good the sound was in many CRT TVs. My 85yo Dad still has the 2nd colour TV we bought in 1982 (26"). He keeps it because it still works perfectly and it sounds like a hifi system- and it's only mono! I've given him a couple of flatscreens (42" and a 32") and although he likes the picture, one has a pair of floor standing speakers and an amplifier to give sound that is good enough to comprehend what mumbling actors say on TV these days.

Around 2000, we sold a Panasonic 29" stereo CRT TV called 'The One'. It had sound so good, I used to demonstrate it with a CD player fed into the line inputs. It was phenomenally good.

Here, I found it on youtube!

I don't think people are listening to any more music than we did. We had quality FM broadcasting in the 70s/80s and 90s. Lots of stations broadcasting CD content for free. Now FM is a wasteland of lossy, compressed garbage.

As for headphones, the quality headphones in the 1980s made for Walkmans were better than much of the garbage being sold now. I listen to my boys overpriced cans and they are putrid compared to even an ancient pair of Sony MDR-70s I bought in ~1983. Way more efficient, comfortable and better sounding. Sure, the high end modern expensive cans are considerably better, but not the mass-market stuff- it's trash and always will be.

It's handy to have actual physical references from the 1980s to compare old to new...:

View attachment 22959

View attachment 22960

I use these old Sonys for the computer. They are so comfortable I often forget I have them on my head- lucky they have about an 8ft cord. :)

I remember prior to the advent of TV stereo sound in the UK (1991) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NICAM

the BBC would simulcast TV music events on Stereo FM radio stations. My parents would get highly irritated with me moving the hifi speakers either side of the TV so I could watch whatever concert.

They still don't realise why the TV colour went bananas one day and ended up being replaced........ unshielded speaker magnets....

@restorer-john what was the standard for stereo TV in Australia prior to DVB?
 
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