I have a question about the overload margin after looking more closely at the topography. It looks like both channels are sharing op amps for the gain stages. Could this be a contributing factor? Anecdotally many people rave on internet forums (for whatever those opinions are worth which tends to be not much) about the jump in performance when going up to the next model(s) with each channel utilizing its own independent circuit, but there may be something measurable to go with those listening impressions.
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Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 Phono Stage Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Dual op amps can be successfully used to work in both channels of a stereo amplifier. There would be some crosstalk, but it would be minimal and not a cause of concern, unless a preposterous separation spec is a goal of the design.
Unfortunately, I have not heard the KC Vibe. I do own its big brother - the Insight. The Insight is a fabulous phono stage that I can recommend to anyone using a cartridge that costs $1500 or less (approx the retail cost of my Hana ML). It was much quieter, more neutral and more even handed than the Parasound Zphono USB I was using previously.
It was only displaced by a Bryston that retailed for more than twice the price, when sold new. The Bryston is a bit more forward and detailed to my ear; it uses a SUT for the MC input.
Given the experience I’ve had with Sutherland (the company) and with the Insight, I’d expect the KC Vibe to sound as good as anything in its price range, if not better. It should last a lifetime. There are definitely less expensive options, but the KC Vibe should satisfy.
Edit: Corrected some typos from the earlier posting.
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Skeeter
Member
There are two basic approaches to phono smp design
1. active/passive. With this approach, you amplify the signal from the cartridge and then feed it into an equaliser network.
2. all active. With this approach, the equalisation is applied around the main gain stage
Designers have their preferences, but in general on low supply rails - so up to say +-18 V - the all active approach offers the best overload performance so getting > 20 dB across the audio band is easy to do. Many opamp based commercial products using active/passive equalisation feature low overload margins and the Sutherland reviewed here is another example. In general, you need good overload margins for the following reasons, assuming you are selling a product for general consumer use:-
Assume a recording level of 5cm/sec at 1 kHz on the vinyl, nominal. On a ‘hot’ recording this might well be 6 dB higher so you now get 10 mV out of your cartridge. Add another 2 dB for high output cartridges so the input to the equaliser is now 12-13 mV. To this, add the typical dynamic range peaks on a recording of 10 dB (some are nearly double this) and the input to the amp is now at 40 mV. But, at 20 kHz, the output coming off the vinyl is 20 dB higher, since the pickup cartridge is a velocity transducer, and you have a theoretical 400 mV peak input. Fortunately, these levels are never seen in practice since there is very little music energy above 5 or 6 kHz and the only thing generating substantial levels at HF are the occasional clicks and pops which in any event you do not want overloading the equaliser amp.
Shure did a lot of work on this in the 1970’s and concluded the overload margin for a vinyl preamp should be 26 dB reference 5cm/sec at 1 kHz which translates to 100mV into the equaliser amp with a standard 5mV/1 kHz rated cartridge. On standard +-18 V supply rails, this is difficult to do with active/passive at HF. Some of these designs do the HF equalisation in the first stage and then the LF EQ in subsequent stages, but this often incurs a noise penalty that you don’t get with all active topologies.
Active/passive approaches are best suited to tube based designs where you have a lot of voltage headroom (typically 50~100 or more volts) coupled to low current drive capability (5mA typical in a tube based equaliser). In designs optimised for low noise, the EQ network impedance in the all active approach drops significantly at HF requiring substantial current from the amplifier which is something modern opamps can do easily at low distortion (even the venerable NE5534/2 is no slouch in this regard). You can of course raise the impedance of the EQ network to reduce the HF current demand, but you will then incur a noise penalty. Lots of trade-off's to be made, but it seems the all active, from the purely performance and engineering perspective, is the best way to go on low voltage supply rails.
One final point. In any well designed moving magnet EQ amp, the cartridge itself is the limiting factor wrt noise performance and not the electronics. With the input to the equaliser amp shorted, reference 5mV it is relatively easy to get < -80 dB noise floor measurement (-84 dB 'A' weighted). However, this omits to take into account the current noise of the input devices when using bipolar input stages and also the inherent thermal (aka Johnson or Johnson-Nyquist) noise of the cartridge winding resistance - see this blog post by Stuart Yaniger here for further information on why this is the case https://www.syclotron.com/riaa-noise-calculator/
You can read about some of this stuff and the design trade off’s here https://hifisonix.com/projects/x-altra-phono-eq-preamp/ and here https://hifisonix.com/technical/riaa-phono-equalizer-amplifiers/
1. active/passive. With this approach, you amplify the signal from the cartridge and then feed it into an equaliser network.
2. all active. With this approach, the equalisation is applied around the main gain stage
Designers have their preferences, but in general on low supply rails - so up to say +-18 V - the all active approach offers the best overload performance so getting > 20 dB across the audio band is easy to do. Many opamp based commercial products using active/passive equalisation feature low overload margins and the Sutherland reviewed here is another example. In general, you need good overload margins for the following reasons, assuming you are selling a product for general consumer use:-
Assume a recording level of 5cm/sec at 1 kHz on the vinyl, nominal. On a ‘hot’ recording this might well be 6 dB higher so you now get 10 mV out of your cartridge. Add another 2 dB for high output cartridges so the input to the equaliser is now 12-13 mV. To this, add the typical dynamic range peaks on a recording of 10 dB (some are nearly double this) and the input to the amp is now at 40 mV. But, at 20 kHz, the output coming off the vinyl is 20 dB higher, since the pickup cartridge is a velocity transducer, and you have a theoretical 400 mV peak input. Fortunately, these levels are never seen in practice since there is very little music energy above 5 or 6 kHz and the only thing generating substantial levels at HF are the occasional clicks and pops which in any event you do not want overloading the equaliser amp.
Shure did a lot of work on this in the 1970’s and concluded the overload margin for a vinyl preamp should be 26 dB reference 5cm/sec at 1 kHz which translates to 100mV into the equaliser amp with a standard 5mV/1 kHz rated cartridge. On standard +-18 V supply rails, this is difficult to do with active/passive at HF. Some of these designs do the HF equalisation in the first stage and then the LF EQ in subsequent stages, but this often incurs a noise penalty that you don’t get with all active topologies.
Active/passive approaches are best suited to tube based designs where you have a lot of voltage headroom (typically 50~100 or more volts) coupled to low current drive capability (5mA typical in a tube based equaliser). In designs optimised for low noise, the EQ network impedance in the all active approach drops significantly at HF requiring substantial current from the amplifier which is something modern opamps can do easily at low distortion (even the venerable NE5534/2 is no slouch in this regard). You can of course raise the impedance of the EQ network to reduce the HF current demand, but you will then incur a noise penalty. Lots of trade-off's to be made, but it seems the all active, from the purely performance and engineering perspective, is the best way to go on low voltage supply rails.
One final point. In any well designed moving magnet EQ amp, the cartridge itself is the limiting factor wrt noise performance and not the electronics. With the input to the equaliser amp shorted, reference 5mV it is relatively easy to get < -80 dB noise floor measurement (-84 dB 'A' weighted). However, this omits to take into account the current noise of the input devices when using bipolar input stages and also the inherent thermal (aka Johnson or Johnson-Nyquist) noise of the cartridge winding resistance - see this blog post by Stuart Yaniger here for further information on why this is the case https://www.syclotron.com/riaa-noise-calculator/
You can read about some of this stuff and the design trade off’s here https://hifisonix.com/projects/x-altra-phono-eq-preamp/ and here https://hifisonix.com/technical/riaa-phono-equalizer-amplifiers/
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Great overview. What would constitute "excellent" preamp performance in these three areas?
- Frequency response
- Overload margin
- SINAD
Skeeter
Member
For FR anything better than 0.3 dB RIAA conformance 20 Hz to 20 kHz should be considered good. What is important is that at >>20 kHz the response is well behaved and does not exhibit any peaking. Note that most MM carts exhibit some peaking due to the mechanical behaviour of the stylus and the cable capacitance - not the equaliser electronics. Some phono stages boast exceptional conformance of under 0.1 dB, but the vinyl format is riddled with FR anomalies in the mastering chain before the playback chain is even considered so expending huge amounts of effort in this regard is a waste.
For OLM, figures of 20 dB and higher are considered good ref 5mV input at 1 kHz. I would personally start getting very concerned at figures below 12 dB for the reasons given in my earlier post.
SINAD. Utra-low distortion in a vinyl setup is pointless. I’ve seen figures of 0.5% quoted and comments that that is optimistic and typically may be 2-4x that even in a good setup. Using modern opamps, figures of 0.01% are quite adequate and most designs will be at .005%. For noise, if you are getting 72 dB with a cartridge connected, that is good performance. Using the latest low noise JFET opamps you can get to 74 dB, and hybrid discrete designs to 76 dB which is state of the art - again all these figures reference 5mV. As noted earlier, ultimately the noise performance is limited by the cart resistance + inductance combination and not the electronics.
For OLM, figures of 20 dB and higher are considered good ref 5mV input at 1 kHz. I would personally start getting very concerned at figures below 12 dB for the reasons given in my earlier post.
SINAD. Utra-low distortion in a vinyl setup is pointless. I’ve seen figures of 0.5% quoted and comments that that is optimistic and typically may be 2-4x that even in a good setup. Using modern opamps, figures of 0.01% are quite adequate and most designs will be at .005%. For noise, if you are getting 72 dB with a cartridge connected, that is good performance. Using the latest low noise JFET opamps you can get to 74 dB, and hybrid discrete designs to 76 dB which is state of the art - again all these figures reference 5mV. As noted earlier, ultimately the noise performance is limited by the cart resistance + inductance combination and not the electronics.
only.shallow
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So I'm the original owner of the Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 that was sent to Amir for testing. I owned a couple of other phono preamps from Pro-ject before I discovered Sutherland products. I liked how the Sutherlands looked (especially inside), that they were made domestically, and that Ron himself was an engineer that seemed to care a great deal about his products. I also read from other customers that he's always willing to personally help with any issues. Sutherland products are expensive but I felt okay trying the entry level KC Vibe for the above reasons.
The KC Vibe sounded good to my ears with my turntable setup, felt sturdy, and was easy to setup but I just HAD to know how it measured. Ha, ha. I expected the KC Vibe to measure "well" across all tests at the very least considering it cost almost $1000 with tax. Alas, I was disappointed with the poor headroom Amir reported and I was a little embarrassed about how much money I spent on a product I felt should measure great. So I decided to then buy a Mani 2 phono preamp from Schiit since it measured well on ASR and was a quarter of the price of the KC Vibe. And guess what, the Mani 2 sounded good too, was easy to setup, and it's now my current phono preamp. I decided to sell the Sutherland out of principle that another domestic company could make a similar product at the quarter of the price and also measure similarly, if not better.
To be clear, I don't have any negative feelings towards Sutherland and I'm truly curious about his other products and how they sound and measure. I just don't have thousands of dollars to find out and I don't think I can make another $1000 purchase without any objective measurements beforehand. I feel it's fair to expect good measuring audio equipment at a certain price point but I know there are plenty of people that spend a lot more for various reasons like aesthetics, name brand, particular sound signatures, etc. Anyways, I thought I share my feelings about this particular product with those that are on the fence about buying this.
Speaking of phono preamps, I feel like there are quite a few on the market that I would love Amir to test like the recently released Phono Box S3 B. It's balanced and has a pretty cool feature of being able to be hooked up to two separate turntables at the same time; balanced and unbalanced inputs with front switch. It retails at $500 though but I am curious on how it measures... I guess I just don't learn.
The KC Vibe sounded good to my ears with my turntable setup, felt sturdy, and was easy to setup but I just HAD to know how it measured. Ha, ha. I expected the KC Vibe to measure "well" across all tests at the very least considering it cost almost $1000 with tax. Alas, I was disappointed with the poor headroom Amir reported and I was a little embarrassed about how much money I spent on a product I felt should measure great. So I decided to then buy a Mani 2 phono preamp from Schiit since it measured well on ASR and was a quarter of the price of the KC Vibe. And guess what, the Mani 2 sounded good too, was easy to setup, and it's now my current phono preamp. I decided to sell the Sutherland out of principle that another domestic company could make a similar product at the quarter of the price and also measure similarly, if not better.
To be clear, I don't have any negative feelings towards Sutherland and I'm truly curious about his other products and how they sound and measure. I just don't have thousands of dollars to find out and I don't think I can make another $1000 purchase without any objective measurements beforehand. I feel it's fair to expect good measuring audio equipment at a certain price point but I know there are plenty of people that spend a lot more for various reasons like aesthetics, name brand, particular sound signatures, etc. Anyways, I thought I share my feelings about this particular product with those that are on the fence about buying this.
Speaking of phono preamps, I feel like there are quite a few on the market that I would love Amir to test like the recently released Phono Box S3 B. It's balanced and has a pretty cool feature of being able to be hooked up to two separate turntables at the same time; balanced and unbalanced inputs with front switch. It retails at $500 though but I am curious on how it measures... I guess I just don't learn.
The primary drawback to the Schiit versus the KC Vibe is the limited MC range. If you are only using MM cartridges, I could see how the gap might be small. For MC cartridges, the amplification task can be much more of a challenge for which the Vibe is better suited.So I'm the original owner of the Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 that was sent to Amir for testing. I owned a couple of other phono preamps from Pro-ject before I discovered Sutherland products. I liked how the Sutherlands looked (especially inside), that they were made domestically, and that Ron himself was an engineer that seemed to care a great deal about his products. I also read from other customers that he's always willing to personally help with any issues. Sutherland products are expensive but I felt okay trying the entry level KC Vibe for the above reasons.
The KC Vibe sounded good to my ears with my turntable setup, felt sturdy, and was easy to setup but I just HAD to know how it measured. Ha, ha. I expected the KC Vibe to measure "well" across all tests at the very least considering it cost almost $1000 with tax. Alas, I was disappointed with the poor headroom Amir reported and I was a little embarrassed about how much money I spent on a product I felt should measure great. So I decided to then buy a Mani 2 phono preamp from Schiit since it measured well on ASR and was a quarter of the price of the KC Vibe. And guess what, the Mani 2 sounded good too, was easy to setup, and it's now my current phono preamp. I decided to sell the Sutherland out of principle that another domestic company could make a similar product at the quarter of the price and also measure similarly, if not better.
To be clear, I don't have any negative feelings towards Sutherland and I'm truly curious about his other products and how they sound and measure. I just don't have thousands of dollars to find out and I don't think I can make another $1000 purchase without any objective measurements beforehand. I feel it's fair to expect good measuring audio equipment at a certain price point but I know there are plenty of people that spend a lot more for various reasons like aesthetics, name brand, particular sound signatures, etc. Anyways, I thought I share my feelings about this particular product with those that are on the fence about buying this.
Speaking of phono preamps, I feel like there are quite a few on the market that I would love Amir to test like the recently released Phono Box S3 B. It's balanced and has a pretty cool feature of being able to be hooked up to two separate turntables at the same time; balanced and unbalanced inputs with front switch. It retails at $500 though but I am curious on how it measures... I guess I just don't learn.
I found the pairing of my Insight to a Hana SL to be wonderful. To exceed it required a phono that was multiples the MSRP of the Insight.
Bob from Florida
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Interesting journey. If I understand you correctly, you were fine with the way the KC Vibe sounded prior to reading the measurements. After reading, you purchased the Schiit because it measured better. It sounds like the Schiit sounded equivalent and now you are selling the Vibe as a result. I wonder if the phono stage measurements are only meaningful up to a point - like Sinad in DACS means very little past a certain point.So I'm the original owner of the Sutherland KC Vibe MK2 that was sent to Amir for testing. I owned a couple of other phono preamps from Pro-ject before I discovered Sutherland products. I liked how the Sutherlands looked (especially inside), that they were made domestically, and that Ron himself was an engineer that seemed to care a great deal about his products. I also read from other customers that he's always willing to personally help with any issues. Sutherland products are expensive but I felt okay trying the entry level KC Vibe for the above reasons.
The KC Vibe sounded good to my ears with my turntable setup, felt sturdy, and was easy to setup but I just HAD to know how it measured. Ha, ha. I expected the KC Vibe to measure "well" across all tests at the very least considering it cost almost $1000 with tax. Alas, I was disappointed with the poor headroom Amir reported and I was a little embarrassed about how much money I spent on a product I felt should measure great. So I decided to then buy a Mani 2 phono preamp from Schiit since it measured well on ASR and was a quarter of the price of the KC Vibe. And guess what, the Mani 2 sounded good too, was easy to setup, and it's now my current phono preamp. I decided to sell the Sutherland out of principle that another domestic company could make a similar product at the quarter of the price and also measure similarly, if not better.
To be clear, I don't have any negative feelings towards Sutherland and I'm truly curious about his other products and how they sound and measure. I just don't have thousands of dollars to find out and I don't think I can make another $1000 purchase without any objective measurements beforehand. I feel it's fair to expect good measuring audio equipment at a certain price point but I know there are plenty of people that spend a lot more for various reasons like aesthetics, name brand, particular sound signatures, etc. Anyways, I thought I share my feelings about this particular product with those that are on the fence about buying this.
Speaking of phono preamps, I feel like there are quite a few on the market that I would love Amir to test like the recently released Phono Box S3 B. It's balanced and has a pretty cool feature of being able to be hooked up to two separate turntables at the same time; balanced and unbalanced inputs with front switch. It retails at $500 though but I am curious on how it measures... I guess I just don't learn.
I would suggest you keep and use the Vibe with the Schiit as a backup. Too much depreciation in the Vibe because of the higher price. Besides, the Vibe is nicer to look upon.
only.shallow
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Yes, I was using a Sumiko Amethyst MM cartridge when I was testing out the KC Vibe and Mani 2. That's so cool you have an Insight! I love how it looks and I'm still curious how it measures against the KC Vibe. Will you ever be inclined to send it to Amir?
You are correct and I agree with you on the analogy with Sinad and DACs. However the price difference was so great between the two phonos that I ended up selling the KC Vibe and used those funds to upgrade other components in my system. And yes, the Vibe looks better than the Mani, I'll give it that. Again, I wasn't unhappy with the sound from the KC Vibe but if I can buy a similar product that sounds the same to me and measures similarly or better, I'll go with the cheaper option... unless it's absolutely hideous to look at. Ha, ha. The Mani 2 wasn't out yet btw when I bought the KC Vibe so I most likely would have bought the Mani 2 first. Pretty cool there's an affordable and well measuring phono out there now, especially for younger people getting into vinyl.
I had chatted with him about it months ago but never got around to putting it in the mail. I still may do so; I’ve not seen a review measuring it before.
Bob from Florida
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Another bargain is the iFi Zen Phono. Easily outperforms my Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2+. Sounds similar but much less hum at high volume. I get trying different stuff - part of the hobby.
To illustrate the point, here are curves of two very good cartridges. One is £799 and the other is £3095.
Color Key:
Lateral (L+R, black), vertical (L–R, red), stereo (dashed) tracing and generator distortion (2nd-4th harms) vs. freq. from 20Hz-20kHz (–8dB re. 5cm/sec)
Can you tell which is which?
Balle Clorin
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anything below 10% peak distortion is A fairly OK å performance
Hardxto say I see little corrolation between price snd technicsl performance , but only 7% peak distortion is very very good. 15% is alsrmingly high but mot uncommon. Here is a cartridge that game with every Technics turntable in the 70s and a 140USD stylus
Post in thread 'Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1666424
PS I recognise your plot , the low distortion is the 799 A well regarded cartridge. Too bad the HifiNews revideres did not load it properly, the peak resonance is too low and drops off too soon. I wonder what loading it takes for an optimal frequency response
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Balle Clorin
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I have got very fat fingers for mobile use I see..
Well schitt‘s creek! With an Ortofon bronze and a 1200mk5, what’s will be the best and most reliable phono preamp? I want the Crown Jewels, the bees knees, no op-amps pls!
-Black Cube II SE
-Parasound JC3 uncle junior
-Stellar
-Good Note PH5
-Music Hall A3
-Fidelice
-Rega aria
-Hegel v10
-Phonomena 3
Most of the listening will be done with both eyes closed, petting one dog, drinking Oban 18yr. Wall paint is ”American white”, no pun intended. I want headroom y’all! Obrigado
-Black Cube II SE
-Parasound JC3 uncle junior
-Stellar
-Good Note PH5
-Music Hall A3
-Fidelice
-Rega aria
-Hegel v10
-Phonomena 3
Most of the listening will be done with both eyes closed, petting one dog, drinking Oban 18yr. Wall paint is ”American white”, no pun intended. I want headroom y’all! Obrigado
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Getting solid-state, no op amps is a challenge; I can only come up with the Bryston BP-2 with that feature.
@Michael Fidler makes great designs at different price points that combine op amps, in the right places, with bipolar transistors.
@Michael Fidler makes great designs at different price points that combine op amps, in the right places, with bipolar transistors.
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