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Avantone Pro MixCube Monitor Review

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 169 83.3%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 15 7.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 15 7.4%

  • Total voters
    203

MediumRare

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Is this the worst speaker ever measured? The claimed professional usage to replicate bad systems is hilarious. The resonance could not possibly be representative of an entire class of crap audio devices. If the idea is to add distortion and limit FR, any studio will have a better electronic and repeatable way to do that.
 

Blumlein 88

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Perhaps but the road noise masks some of the low end, right? I think it's also likely that, being off axis, a lot of the highest frequencies miss your ears. The point being that, though the stock stereo of today's vehicles may outperform those of bygone eras, what ultimately makes it into our brains during a ride might not differ as much.
Ridiculous. Go measure some new and old car stereos. They sure sound better.
 

dfuller

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yes group delay is most important for good transients.
Keeping group delay to a minimum is important, yes; generally, under 1 cycle at frequency x is considered good. However it is tied directly to amplitude and phase response, so keep that in mind.

Bottom line: ringing ruins transients - established from you and Toole. What I'm not clear about is the 'crossover phase distortion' and effect of sealed-vs-ported cabinets on transient response. Until now, I just thought it was solely the amplitude ringing and suspected that sealed cabinets somehow had better transient response.
Sealed cabinets have a slower roll-off than bass reflex alignments. All filters ring, including the rolloff of a speaker, and phase rotates more for a steeper roll-off.
 

Blumlein 88

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This is just anecdotal, but what improved my mixes and how well they translated was switching to LSR 305 speakers. When I first did this I had restricted space. Of course I'm no pro. Maybe if I had picked up some sealed one way boxes from a 1970s department store stereo at at a yard sale I could have done a final sanity check with better results?
 

Geert

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And so now we value a pinpoint image of a broken design crossoverless speaker to simulate loft?
That's exactly the opposite of what I said: "I also believe the reason this types of speakers can be helpful to some is because of their strengths and not their weaknesses (uneven frequency response and resonances)".

On the first page I already said these type of speakers are a thing of the past, so doesn't make sense to compare them to LS50's. I also don't understand why you keep on bashing pro sound production techniques based on the graphs of the Avantones while I repeatedly said these are not the speakers pro studio's use. Even better; in this thread different sound engineers testified they worked in studio's with Auratones but don't use them, or just use them for a specific reason like checking low end translation.
 
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markanini

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No offense to the guy, but I'm getting the impression he's trying to too hard to justify his purchase. If he likes it and finds it useful, so be it.
A number of people have described coherently how the speaker type has utility in a mixing context. Justifying a purchase is rational if it helps you pay the bills. But acting like you can intuit knowledge about the mixing work without experience is rather remarkable.
 

heflys20

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A number of people have described coherently how the speaker type has utility in a mixing context. Justifying a purchase is rational if it helps you pay the bills. But acting like you can intuit knowledge about the mixing work without experience is rather remarkable.
I agree. If works for him, that's all that matters.
 

Robbo99999

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How come you get to 'voice' your opinions but when I do it, it's 'harping', 'spouting', and 'getting hung up on stuff'?

I'm definitely arguing in good faith but maybe I'm not making myself clear. Let me try it with bullet points:

  • 1. I am born I get into audio and start at zero consequently accepting almost everything without much frame of reference.
  • 2. I discover Spinorama and think it's the last word on loudspeakers
  • 3. Regrettably, I post on gearspace requesting a spin of the SCM25A pro and subsequently get dog piled by feisty fans who say, practically in unison, things like, "I can't mix on flat loudspeakers like the KH 310, the SCM25A is the standard, who the **** are you? What do measurements have to do with whether a speaker works in a pro environment," et cetera, ad nauseam...
  • 4. Meanwhile, my Mixcube is in the Pacific Northwest awaiting its spin.
  • 5. We receive the shocking news that this speaker looks objectively broken. Interestingly, the review mentions that several aspects of the usual data do not apply nearfield.
  • 6. The data and Amir's opinion conflict with my experience that this is a useful speaker and I say so
  • 7. It becomes obvious that 'translation' quality of a loudspeaker is undefined
  • 8. We discuss as to how to define it
  • 9. You disagree that this speaker is literally worth anything more than actual, stinking refuse and vehemently reject it in the absolute sense with the prejudice of a thousand Supreme Court Justices
  • 10. I try to explain the course of events with bullet points (but then realize that an ordered list would've been more appropriate and now my list looks like rump)

You demand that I don't repeat myself so I will not. Please reread what I've said if you wish to understand. Logic is no alien in my cognitive universe. With utmost certainty, I have made pristinely clear that I think this speaker has merit for its intended purpose and I simply wish to know what that is in objective terms.

Thank you for almost commending me, the whiff of commendation almost made me feel honored. :)
Nope, that's not how it happened re the points I & others raised with you, you're misrepresenting again what's been said to you, and I'm not repeating them, you take up an awful lot of space in creating nothing. Anyway, as I said thanks for sending the speaker in, but I must really cease to discuss further with you.
 

DavidMcRoy

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What did you use in live and pre-pro TV production?

Billie Eilish’s brother produced her whole debut (and breakthrough) hit album in the box on a pair of yam hs5 and the sub.

Did you use a sub?

Hehe
In my response upthread, I forgot to answer your questions. I worked in live TV news at the CBS affiliate in West Palm Beach, Florida and on a number of programs for ABC-TV (USA,) NBC-TV and PBS. I also recorded classical music broadcasts of the New Orleans Philharmonic for NPR. In all of that, I only had access to a subwoofer at WPEC-TV, (CBS) in West Palm Beach. Its primary function? To allow me to hear traffic rumble and HVAC noise in sound from field video so I could selectively cut it out of the mix.
 
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Hexspa

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I have a pair of original Auratones from the 1970's and still use them always in mixdown and reference mix comparisons (though that's rarely, nowadays). I had to re-foam them a few years ago, the original Auratones like mine had a roll surround and did not exhibit so much of the nasty upper mid/low hf of these Avantones -- speakers which I would avoid.

I have not read every post, but I suspect there's a bit of mis-understanding going on about this class of monitors. I'm confident they were originally introduced to replace the grot-box, but mixers rapidly grasped that they forced concentration on the essential mid-frequencies of the mix, and encouraged precise balancing in that area, oddly, including ensuring that bass and bass drum balance is adequate on band-limited playback systems, Once that is all alright, then you turn them off and use better monitors to deal with the ends of the spectrum (while still checking on them).

As to why use them instead of, say, bandpass filters or some form of emulation, well people get used to what material sounds like and should sound like on their equipment, plus you could stick'em in a bag and take them to another studio with ease. They also have startlingly good imaging and no port!

Myself, I prefer my originals to any of the reissued Auratones, and did not like any of the substitutes offered by other manufacturers.

There’s contemporary frequency responses of a re-issue of the original Auratones (brighter with a peak) at:

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/I...DX/80s/Studio-Sound-1984-10-OCR-Page-0098.pdf

Also comparative reviews of the originals, more recent reissues and Avantones at:

https://en.audiofanzine.com/passive...ube-2014/editorial/reviews/mystical-aura.html

Do note the 1/6th 8ve smoothing.

Behringer also did a soundcube and I recall a couple of others, none of which ever tempted me. There's a review of those explaining why they are not utterly awful, and Auratones are useful, at:


In any case, improvements to overall frequency response are not the point here, the restrictions on it are what is important, much as with the truly awful (but very useful) Yamaha NS-10s, which replaced many of these. If you want good balanced monitors, Auratones are not they! And these, even less so.
Thanks for this. The World Radio History site shows the amplitude response of the (presumably vintage) Auratone 5C to be almost an inverse of the Avantone, with its own resonance at 8kHz. Audiofanzine got a slightly different response out of the Avantone than I did but part of that must be down to room acoustics. Lamentable to see that the currently-produced Auratone 5C lacks some of the defining character of the vintage 5PSC. As with many devices in the audio production world, vintage remains unmatched.

I mean, the modern 5C is only $200 for passive and how much is a 50W 8-ohm amp? Auratone only sells their Active versions in pairs and a stereo amp for about $399. It’s probably a surprise to no one but I’m considering selling this Auratone and replacing it with an active Auratone. If anyone would like to split a package up with me, let me know. No concrete time frame at this point, however. Maybe 3-6mos or even a year.
 

Hexspa

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I never said that. And this speaker can’t do anything even remotely close to what can be done with software. I can guarantee that software is far, far more useful than this speaker could ever be for checking mixes.
I have a lot of modern, highly-capable software and a mixcube. If I want, I can do all sorts of DSP to my Yamaha HS50 - and I do - but often I just use the mixcube.

I think a cube speaker of any make has enough difference in physical properties to be worth a few hundred bucks for use as a reference. Ultimately, our opinions mean little and can’t be reconciled directly. We will have to DSP speaker X then measure it to see what can and can’t be replicated. Then we have to use it to see if there’s a difference in creating ‘translating mixes’. It’s much simpler to just use a cube, though. You don’t need a stealth bomber as daily transport and, in fact, it’s far less practical than a Civic, not to mention different in many ways. That’s how I see the cube.
 

Hexspa

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No offense to the guy, but I'm getting the impression he's trying to too hard to justify his purchase. If he likes it and finds it useful, so be it.
Your impression may be distorted. I explicitly stated my motivations here and elsewhere on this thread. Indeed I find it useful and I like it but I feel like you reducing my contribution here to a psychological defense mechanism seems inappropriate and highly presumptuous. You could’ve asked. I bought this speaker a decade ago. Who justifies such an old purchase?

To those who liked this comment, I consider this promoting passive aggression and am considering blocking all of your accounts. I’m not tolerating any personal attacks.
 

heflys20

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Your impression may be distorted. I explicitly stated my motivations here and elsewhere on this thread. Indeed I find it useful and I like it but I feel like you reducing my contribution here to a psychological defense mechanism seems inappropriate and highly presumptuous. You could’ve asked. I bought this speaker a decade ago. Who justifies such an old purchase?

To those who liked this comment, I consider this promoting passive aggression and am considering blocking all of your accounts. I’m not tolerating any personal attacks.
That link doesn't work, but I'll take your word for it.
 

Hexspa

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the strange thing when look at the phase curve the avantone look worser too . or maybe it is better when phase drop at simular level all over FR. phase is hard to interpretation because the time you get only when you calc degree and the frequency you want. so better is look at group delay but in group delay it is not noticable in 2 way speakers. the crossover i have attach screenshots that show phase . the krk rokit phase many speakers have too.

this is avantone with phase


View attachment 271212


tghis adam t5v with phase

View attachment 271214

this is group delay of adam t5v and it is simular on others too. you can not see any phase problem depend on crossover range

View attachment 271217

this group delay of avantone . there can see the group delay rises earlier and increase with frequency drop is smoother as other speakers.

View attachment 271218
I don’t know how to interpret phase as it relates to amplitude response. Yes, the group delay has a flatter slope. From what I understand, group delay is mostly inaudible in low frequencies up to a certain point. I don’t know what that audibility threshold is per frequency though. To make use of these metrics you’re showing, we need to know if they’re audible. Absolute phase is inaudible, from what I understand but the phase relationships among simultaneous frequencies is audible. Basically, I don’t know how to convert what your showing into what I hear. If you can elaborate, I’ll appreciate it.
 

Zensō

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I have a lot of modern, highly-capable software and a mixcube. If I want, I can do all sorts of DSP to my Yamaha HS50 - and I do - but often I just use the mixcube.

I think a cube speaker of any make has enough difference in physical properties to be worth a few hundred bucks for use as a reference. Ultimately, our opinions mean little and can’t be reconciled directly. We will have to DSP speaker X then measure it to see what can and can’t be replicated. Then we have to use it to see if there’s a difference in creating ‘translating mixes’. It’s much simpler to just use a cube, though. You don’t need a stealth bomber as daily transport and, in fact, it’s far less practical than a Civic, not to mention different in many ways. That’s how I see the cube.
I’m curious how you check your mixes for translation on transducers other than low quality mono cube speakers? Do you use software or do you have a wide range of stereo speakers, Bluetooth speakers, headphones, IEMs, earbuds, car speaker systems etc., etc. available?
 

tktran303

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It’s just a work tool. Sometimes I use a circular saw, sometimes I used a band saw, sometimes I used a router, sometimes I use a table saw. Sometimes I can’t be bothered and just use a hacksaw or small branch pruner(!).

Whether I make better or award winning furniture or crappy furniture than you may have nothing to do with what I’m using.

Maybe I just have more patience or experience or skill (or less) than you. Or a moment of inspiration? Or elbow grease?
Or it came to me in dream or a vision?

You don’t need a Mont Blanc to write Purlitzer Prize winning novel. And although some swear by their typewriter or MacBook they are neither necessary or sufficient.

The analogy in song writing or production that the kids who think they need a ProTools or Logic Pro setup and the latest “state of the art” monitor like the KH150 to write; just like their favourite musician/producer.

Give the guy a break…
 
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Hexspa

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Group delay is directly related to frequency response and phase. A sealed speaker is a 2nd order system (12dB/octave amplitude rolloff) and a ported speaker a 4th order (24dB/octave amplitude rollof). As such a sealed speaker has a lower phase shift and lower group delay. If you high pass a loudspeaker you introduce additional phase shift and group delay.

People are not very sensitive to group delay. The academic consensus is that group delay doesn't matter in practice, as the acoustics of a room introduce a lot of group delay by itself. It might be of more importance when listening near field, in an acoustically treated room. However, sensitivity to group delay is mainly relevant for low frequencies. The ones the Avantones don't reproduce ... We already have threads dedicated to this topic, like https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/importance-of-impulse-response.38960/
Ok, I think my understanding about this is sharpening. Filtering of any kind, whether from a loudspeaker enclosure, a crossover, or a room introduces phase shift and group delay. Group delay applies mainly to low frequencies and low frequencies are by definition ‘slow’. Group delay is mostly inaudible unless excessive (anyone can probably hear 100ms of group delay but probably not 10ms below a certain frequency cutoff). A band-limited speaker such as these cubes has less phase shift because of a gentler physical high-pass filter (sealed cabinet) and no crossover. It also has less group delay, or at least whatever delay there is is greatly attenuated in level (a member here has shown a page back that the cube does exhibit group delay but that its relatively ‘flat’ when shown as a curve).

I can understand how these aspects lead to a phase-coherent speaker. Does any of this manifest audibly? Ringing ruins transients but, subjectively, this speaker is sharp and punchy. What I gather is that, yes it rings and that hurts impulse response but other factors like phase coherence and low bass levels somewhat offset the deleterious impact of the system’s resonances.

Here’s an ASR thread about how rooms add group delay. I’m going to have to read this. Thank you for helping me.
 
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