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Kali LP-6 v2 or Elac DBR62 for Home Theater?

ooheadsoo

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@ooheadsoo which part exactly?
Fine, I'll do the work.

Press release:
1678495999158.png


This is not to say that the Elacs aren't a great choice - they seem to be very nice, indeed.
 
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HooStat

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@HooStat
This is Kali LP 6 first gen but nothing changed with V2 (they reworked amplifier).
All do Amir didn't do Elac measurements on high SPL he is quite sensitive to distortion and wouldn't push them to insane levels if such happened. Actually he rarely ever did that with any speakers for mentioned reasons and you can clearly see what happens in case of LP 6.
It's not just about driver diameter; it's about materials, excursion rate of drivers and stiffness of cabinets. I do think LP 6 V2 are best budget near field monitor's but I wouldn't use them for far feald which 3 m arguably is. As for his use ELAC's are better and will fill the relatively large room quite nicely and to wide listening positions.
I hope you will all understand this much now as I am getting tired of repeating it over and over again.
Repeating things doesn't change the evidence. You cite a review of the older model. There is no comparative data for the Elac. Saying that "Amir is quite sensitive to distortion" isn't data or evidence.

EDIT: You did show comparable data for the Elac. Thank you for that. It is quite a good monitor. But I don't see any dramatic differences.
 

ZolaIII

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@ooheadsoo the lighter membrane actually could be worse regarding excursion rate (probably is) leading to worse distortion but for the sake of argument let's say that it isn't. Main thing is they fixed hum from amplifier. I used distortion measurement from a first gen to compare them apples to apples in same methodology.
@HooStat well he aborts adding up power when he feals distortion and feal free to ask him if you think differently. And usually push only good headphones (again with very little distortion and certainly less than 99% of speakers) to such SPL that he calls ear bleeding.
Main difference is in wide dispersion of Elac's vs more narrow one of Kali's meaning first ones are better for mid to far field and second ones are better for near field. That's the biggest difference and this isn't small room nor near field listening. As a matter of fact that's why small Elac's are enough for medium to relatively big room (with their ability to play very loud with little distortion) that puts them even on pair or close to medium floor standers which is rare.
Have a nice time and a good night from me.
 
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Ellebob

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Again, if only playing moderate volumes either speaker would be fine at 3m or further. Depends on listening level. I can play these pretty loud without distortion. If one wants to really crank it then yes larger speakers are needed. But, the poster said his volumes are more moderate. He will be fine with either even if turned up a little loud but not nightclub loud.

Here are some SPL readings with the LP-6 playing music pretty loud, louder than I would normally listen unless I wanted to hear them upstairs. The app with calibrated mic and SPL meter both show 90's at 16.5ft (5m) where I was standing behind my couch. Remember you are going to get some room gain.
When it started getting above 95db I could start to see some compression on the RTA and as it approached 100db the limiter kicked in. Test tones can be somewhat of a torture test for speakers and don't always represent what will happen with normal material being played.
 

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Ellebob

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The Kali's I would not call narrow distortion, +/- 60 degrees by Amir's measurements. The Elac was better at +/- 80 degrees but both are really good compared to many speaker. I wouldn't call these narrow dispersion. Something like a horizontal MTM center speaker with +/- 15-20 degrees I would say has poor off axis response.
 

ooheadsoo

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Dispersion width is also less important the more channels you have, so it's not the most important factor for multichannel. I would personally still let the electronics you're willing to put up with drive the decision.
 

ZolaIII

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The Kali's I would not call narrow distortion, +/- 60 degrees by Amir's measurements. The Elac was better at +/- 80 degrees but both are really good compared to many speaker. I wouldn't call these narrow dispersion. Something like a horizontal MTM center speaker with +/- 15-20 degrees I would say has poor off axis response.
More like ±45° and you need to aim them to 20° (17~23°) if you want to get proper responses above 10 KHz which as I can see you didn't done.
Regarding compression you mentioned it's a amplifier soft clipping, noticeable distortion kicked in on lower level.
Have a nice life!
One good thing about this (so that it's not all bad) is that I find out how Erin whose one who send Elac DBR62's to Amir as he whose starting with speakers measurement and wanted to find out what is the best way to do his.
 

ZolaIII

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Dunno about you but I see 60 degs, not 45.
I see 45° (starts fading noticeable at 50°) and early from about 1 KHz.
If you don't see I can't help you there. This is perfectly fine as they are near field monitor's and that is desired for such so that in near field when you aim them get as direct response with as little room influences as possible. Opposite far feald one's use they wide field dispersion and room influences in order to trow on longer distances.
Edit; more painful part is off horizontal axis aiming to 20° which is problematic because small distance in near field and would look a bit aquard on far field bat then again this are near field monitor's anyway.
 
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ZolaIII

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@ooheadsoo If we reverse the question, which of the two would you recommend for a near field desktop setup?
Follow a twist:
 

Marc v E

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I know it may look a bit strange that I'm doubting between passive speakers and active studio monitors.
But after the research I have done, these 2 seem like a good option for my first Home Theater setup.
Both are around the same price class and seem to fare better than most speakers when placed close to a wall / corner.

For now I will keep it at a 2.0 system and, maybe, add a sub or 2 later.
Listing position is at 3 meters (10 foot) out into a 36m² (390 ft²) living room that is untreated.
I only intend to listen at moderate volumes, never at full blast.
My main concerns are, besides the placement constraints, that vocals are clear when watching movies and that the treble is not harsh or fatiguing.

If I go with the LP-6, The optical out of my tv will feed a topping E30 (which I'll also have to buy).
For the DBR62 I'll use my existing SMSL-m6 and an old kenwood kr-a4070 stereo receiver I have lying around.
I will get an better amplifier down the line if I choose to go with the Elacs.
That's an investment I'm willing to make if those speakers would be a better option than the Kali's.


As an additional question, is it worth it to invest into something like a MINIDSP ddrc 24 to apply DIRAC room correction? Or is that wasted money with this kind of setup?


Thanks in advance for your opinion!
Easy. Elac DBR62.
A friend of mine has these. Fantastic speakers. Buy a sub too.

I would recommend to use the eq and digital input of the avr. No use for a minidsp.

That's advice from someone who loves active speakers (I have 2 sets) and owns a minidsp flex eight.
 

Ellebob

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That is not the same measurement as Amir got shown below. I am also saying that they go pretty loud without any audible distortion. My son commented that they sounded clean even when turned up. But that was compared to the Paradigm that was there and that only had a 5" woofer. Either way the Elac has better dispersion. I'm also saying that with those measurements I showed I would never play that loud and that was at 5m.
We will be doing our own off axis measurements as that is standard practice so we can make an acoustic treatments plan if these get used in an installation. I do those measurements outside and due to schedule and weather haven't completed yet. Have a good life yourself!
 

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ZolaIII

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@Ellebob that's Eren's from V2. Seams newer woffer is after all better for near field purposes.
A tip; use protractor and laser pointer to aim a tweater of horizontal angle (at least I do). And it's important to push a good response to about 12.5 KHz and far less above that. You can regulate dispersion bandwidth to about ±10% in digital domain.
I will, don't worry.
Edit: it's unfortunate that you're daily room extends openly to other parts of the house (for the bass region) but so do mine. I have small dedicated and isolated from the rest of the hause listening room in which I am still improving acoustical treatment.
 
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Ellebob

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I seen Erin's measurements and that particular contour plot doesn't seem to correspond well with the horizontal frequency repsonse which is unusual. It also doesn't correspond with his comments. I'm not sure what is going on there as I am sure that whole process is automated wirth the Klippel (Wish I had one of those for work). I will report back when I measure them, raining today but mine will look more like the horizontal frequency response graph. We have a measurement system that does it with 15 degree increments, its preset so easy to do. Takes a little time to set it up though. I am guessing about 60 degrees by the design and the waveguide's shape. One can usually get a rough idea by the design unless they really messed up a crossover or something. For instance, if I see a tweeter without a wave guide they are typically only good to about 40-45 degrees before you see the off axis start detiorating. In general, woofers aren't usually that bad for dispersion unless they crossover too high and get to frequencies where they start to beam.

I have a small one row HT room with a 7.2.4 system in it and I have a 2nd larger home theater room but that might be getting repurposed soon. So, that one is not up and running at the moment. I do listening in both my theater and family room typically. I feel my family room is good spot that represents a lot of average homes for their living/ family rooms. In this business I see less and less dedicated rooms being done in homes, current company excluded. I do a lot of testing in my family room when we get new speakers or equipment at work, projectors I do in the theater room. Sometimes it is sound bars other times speakers or other equipment. I have the LP-6 there at the moment but I do miss the sub. I want to try their IN series as I think that will be a nice step up according to reviews, but they and their sub are back ordered. Hopefully, they arrive towards the end of the month but I will traveling for a bit at the end of the month and in April, so it might be a bit before I get to them.
 

ZolaIII

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I think this re confirms it.
Again I don't see that as a bad thing for near field studio monitors, quite opposite.
Vertical is messy as usual but that is common.
Depends on twitter used really tho wave guide usually helps a bit. Seen very wide berilium twitters and full range drivers that can go up to 9~10 KHz great and wide but that's more of a when money isn't an issue story.
IN 8 had a problem with mids driver picking resonance from woofer as much as I remember. I hope they will make better decoupling without increasing price to much in next version.
 
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Ellebob

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I agree vertical is also messy but again to be expected with this type of design. I see what you are seeing but I don't see that as any major errors below 15khz out to 50-60 degrees. It still follows a similar contour with what I call minor changes in contour. When looking at the contour graph I don't just look at the red section which looks "narrow". I look at how the contour changes as its db decreases. On the the contour the orange section which is down 3-6db and the yellown section down 6-9db is to be expected after about 500hz-1khz. and greater. I look for any big changes in the contour or start getting major dips in the off axis graph. I see some minor changes in the contour but nothing that makes me say, "wow that is really poor".

Compare that to the Rokit or the Ascend acoustics from that same website and those start having problems at much lesser angles. I think we are being a little academic on what we call wide dispersion or how I was taught and assess speakers. I would say the Kali are very good at ~ +/- 50-60 degrees which is where they are about 10db down and contour differences become greater. This is still very good compared to many speakers but something like the Elac I would rank excellent at >75 degrees. I wouldn't call the Kali narrow dispersion. There are a a couple factors when I look at something off axis. One does it follow a similar contour and two how much does it decrease in db. For instance something like the discontinued Genelec 8260 had one of the best horizontal off axis I have seen, even better than the current "ones". It not only followed a close contour but was down less than 5db at 60 degrees, truly outstanding! Most are closer or greater than 10db at 60 degrees and that is still considered very good as long as the contour or response graph still show a similar shape.

Nice website by the way, I will have to save that one. Thanks for posting that.
 

ZolaIII

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I do recommend Kali LP 6 V2's regularly and think they are great speakers especially for the price. DBR62's where one of the last presents from truly great designer (Andrew Jones) who whose there from golden age boom in 70's and I hope they will go into history as truly great and affordable.
Regarding site I still have some faith in scientific institutions.
Best regards and have a nice time.
 

ooheadsoo

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@ooheadsoo If we reverse the question, which of the two would you recommend for a near field desktop setup?
Who cares what I think about that? My point in this thread on the topic is that I would think about electronics costs first, and if you read my tone, I'm pushing for passives for anyone being cost conscious, and if you're shopping for speakers at $400/pr, I'll assume cost figures in fairly heavily.

The rest of my posts have been about misinformation. As for interpretation of the graph, don't you see the two small hotspots as outliers? The second brightest shade of red is my baseline.
 
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Niels Franck

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Easy. Elac DBR62.
A friend of mine has these. Fantastic speakers. Buy a sub too.

I would recommend to use the eq and digital input of the avr. No use for a minidsp.

That's advice from someone who loves active speakers (I have 2 sets) and owns a minidsp flex eight.
Thanks!

How would you suggest to implement eq?
Something like a NAD C658 or an AV that has dirac build in?
 
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