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Earthbound

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I should point something out here. The big difference between tubes and transistors is that tubes tend to sound smoother, with greater actual detail rather than brightness masquerading as detail.


But tubes have measurably greater distortion- so how is this possible?

The answer has something to do with the ear's masking principle; that is where a louder sound can mask the presence of a quieter sound.

It also has to do with how the ear perceives distortion, and in this case I'm talking about distortion where the amplifier is not being overloaded. The ear interprets the 2nd and 3rd harmonics as 'body', 'warmth', 'fullness' and the like, all terms to describe their presence. If these harmonics are present in sufficient quantity, they will mask the presence of the higher orders. Since tube amps generally have more of the lower orders (2nd, 3rd and 4th) than solid state amps, the result is that the higher orders are masked and so tubes sound smoother even though they have greater higher ordered harmonic content than solid state.


So solid state tends to sound brighter and harsher (harder) than tubes because the ear interprets the higher orders in this manner, simply on account of the fact that the higher ordered harmonics (to which the ear is keenly sensitive as it uses them to gauge sound pressure) are exposed.


But there is more, and this bit is really fascinating. The lower orders, if in sufficient quantity, also contribute to soundstage width and depth, as well as lower level detail! This is why tube amps tend to have a wider and deeper soundstage than solid state. Oddly, this is not an exaggeration, but in order to understand that this is so it is helpful to have master tapes or files and also to have been present at the recording to know how it is supposed to sound.

The bottom line is this: unless the amplifier has **no** distortion and by that I really mean no distortion at all and not just vanishingly low, the inclusion of a bit of 2nd and 3rd in sufficient quantity can actually result in the amplifier sounding more 'neutral' to the human ear. Again, this is a topic that deserves more research, but this phenomena has been known for quite some time.


So its going a bit out on a limb to use the word 'accuracy' as in the comment below.

There are many other amp designers of amps in this expensive price range who restrain themselves from doing this for the sake of accuracy
Put another way, if the amplifier designer is aware of how the human hearing perceptual rules work, and is pragmatic about the simple fact that building an amplifier that truly has no distortion is impossible, then the next best thing to do is to include some of the lower harmonics for the perceived benefit they bring, even though it might look bad on the spec sheet. In this way its easy to show that the spec sheets are a good example of the Emperor's New Clothes, as for the most part they ignore human hearing perceptual rules as they have been ascertained in the last 40 years.


Nelson Pass seems to have sorted this out. He is one of the few solid state designers to have done so, and no surprise, his amps sound more 'natural', 'neutral' and musical (IMO) than his competition with lower distortion as a result.

shannere​


82 posts
04-01-2020
 
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Earthbound

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Since this is coming from Nelson Pass and Ralph, Atmasphere owner, I assume they know sound extremely well. I like measurements too. I think perhaps there’s more to sound than many people realize. I do own a Topping and tube dac and enjoy both. I wish I understood the math and human perception of sound better. Instead, I just use my ears. Lol
 

JustJones

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No reason to link Audiogon or copy the post from there, you can find the same opinion from the same amplifier builder here. I can't dispute the claims but I haven't seen any evidence to support them. Might be , you have a link to any?
 
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Earthbound

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No reason to link Audiogon or copy the post from there, you can find the same opinion from the same amplifier builder here. I can't dispute the claims but I haven't seen any evidence to support them. Might be , you have a link to any?
No. I am looking at my next potential amp, Pass Labs xa25 and Benchmark hpa4, and came across this thread. I’m struggling between super accurate, for fear ear fatigue, and something with a little softer edge. Just found the comment interesting and felt there might be something to the statement based on who it came from.
 

kongwee

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He also suggest sold state amplifier not to put feedback. Feedback decrease lower order harmonic but increase higher order harmonic. It is music instrument lower order harmonic more body, higher order harmonic more bright.
 

Rednaxela

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Ah. You are copying a post from another forum. None of what you wrote is yours.

Could you please make this more clear? For instance by putting everything inside double quotes, or adding a little introduction text?

Thanks!
 
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Earthbound

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Ah. You are copying a post from another forum. None of what you wrote is yours.

Could you please make this more clear? For instance by putting everything inside double quotes, or adding a little introduction text?

Thanks!
I see that now. My apologies. I was a line short at the top.
 
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Earthbound

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Ah. You are copying a post from another forum. None of what you wrote is yours.

Could you please make this more clear? For instance by putting everything inside double quotes, or adding a little introduction text?

Thanks!
Any input regarding the statement from Ralph and Nelson Pass Designs?
 

JustJones

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I would get the Benchmark. It has no audible distortion used within its limits.
 
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Earthbound

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I would get the Benchmark. It has no audible distortion used within its limits.
I see they don’t make a preamplifier. Any suggestions? I like the idea of sticking with one company for both.
 

JustJones

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Benchmark has 2 preamps LA4 and the HPA4 which has headphone amp but you still need a DAC or their Dacs can be directly connected to the amplifier except the 3B since it doesn't have volume control.
 

oleg87

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But there is more, and this bit is really fascinating. The lower orders, if in sufficient quantity, also contribute to soundstage width and depth, as well as lower level detail! This is why tube amps tend to have a wider and deeper soundstage than solid state. Oddly, this is not an exaggeration, but in order to understand that this is so it is helpful to have master tapes or files and also to have been present at the recording to know how it is supposed to sound.
Does whoever wrote this understand the whole concept of distortion?
 
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Earthbound

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Benchmark has 2 preamps LA4 and the HPA4 which has headphone amp but you still need a DAC or their Dacs can be directly connected to the amplifier except the 3B since it doesn't have volume control.
I saw the hpa4 and thought it was an amp. I will take a closer look. Thank you
 
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Earthbound

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Benchmark has 2 preamps LA4 and the HPA4 which has headphone amp but you still need a DAC or their Dacs can be directly connected to the amplifier except the 3B since it doesn't have volume control.
Thanks again. Read the full description. The heading says amp but description states line preamplifier. I thought I’d read this early in my initial research. Sounds like a good paring.
 
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