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Mid-fi IEM Recommendations

Jeromeof

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Hi,
So I am looking at a little upgrade. Thanks to this forum I bought the Truthear Zero, the Moondrop Chu and the Salnotes Zero and (and a few others IEM's including Etymotics ), so in general I love the Harman / Neutral sounding (maybe with a little bass boost) - but the build quality was a little lacking so I am curious about what maybe a $200 IEM with a good adherence to the curve but with better build quality might be. I am also curious as to what Crinical calls the "Technicalities" or Technical grade. As these cheaper models while they obviously sound great always get a low technical grade in reviews.

I imagine ones that were reviewed here e.g. Moondrop Blessing 2 have probably been eclipsed as it seems like we are in a golden age for quality IEM's for reasonable prices so possible go for a newer model.

So any recommendations? I am planning on doing a little comparison when I pick one
 

Blorg

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Blessing 2 Dusk is still a benchmark and hasn't been eclipsed.

For less money ($220), the Aful Performer 5 is close, I don't think it's quite as good but it's close and maybe even better in the treble. I think the Aful P5 is quite a bit better than the Hexa.
1677673149891.png

Also worth considering are the planars, Tangzu Zetian Wu Heyday ($199) is probably the most neutral and is very good, the S12 is much better value ($107 direct from Letshuoer if you sign up for their newsletter).
1677673295453.png

Out of these, I'd probably say S12 for $107 is best value, Dusk for $330 is best overall and the other two are in between.

If you want thinner/lighter in the bass in planars, the Dioko ($99) or in hybrids the Hexa ($79) have their bass boost pushed further down. This makes them sound overly lean and thin to me- if you specifically want "a little bass boost" over Harman I'd pick one of the IEMs above instead. They don't have more level in terms of the sub-bass but they have a little more mid-bass which makes them sound fuller. Still by no means too much, none are "warm" and they all have well separated bass shelves.
1677673537633.png
 

Blorg

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For single dynamic drivers around $100, the Olina SE and Tin T4 Plus are also very good. OG Olina is even closer to Harman in the upper mids, if you want more there. Most prefer the SE which brings it down just a touch. Tin T4 Plus is very similar to the much cheaper Tin C2 Mech Warrior ($30) but I think it is a hair better. Main difference from the Truthear Zero is more mid-bass, if you want that. The T4 Plus is quite bassy. Not too bassy, but bassy. Both of these have good soundstage and spatial qualities to my ears.
1677674581518.png
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I am new to IEM so ..
What is wrong about the built quality of the TCZ? . I have the TCZ, however, I don't know any experience with the Chu or the other IEMs you mentioned.I am asking the question seriously.

Peace.
 

markanini

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7Hz Zero is a good set for experimenting with EQ, you can try EQ before making a decision about what to get next. The performance gained for the extra money may vary so at the least you can make an informed decision with the knowledge gained.
 
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Jeromeof

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Hi

I am new to IEM so ..
What is wrong about the built quality of the TCZ? . I have the TCZ, however, I don't know any experience with the Chu or the other IEMs you mentioned.I am asking the question seriously.

Peace.
The Truthear Zero I got initially was badly aligned in one ear - so I got a replacement which is fine but it doesn't quiet sit in my ear correctly without being forced. The Moondrop Chu while sounds great just seems cheap and the Salnotes Zero also seems very cheaply made, but I am not complaining about their sound, just I was thinking of getting an upgrade and build quality and consistency are now high on my list (assuming I can find a similar Neutral sounding IEM). And I was also curious as to what a better "technical grade" might mean though this seems very subjective rating, as this seems to be what often causes one IEM to be rated higher than another.

Thanks @Blorg for your recommendations. The Moondrop Blessing 2 is possible a little over my budget but I do like the look of the FR and its build quality looks amazing (I like the clear resin showing off the internals).

I think I need to do a little bit more research.
 
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SiW

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I have the Salnotes, Truthear Zero and S12 Pro.

S12 are quite bass heavy and not as much sparkle.

Like the Truthear Zero the best but Salnotes aren’t far off.

Do the S12’s need to be run for a while first and shouldn’t be discounted from an initial listen?
 

Blorg

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@SiW You may get used to them if you listen to them for a while. Nothing changes with the IEM itself. OG S12 has more sparkle than the Pro version, many felt a bit too much sparkle so they pulled it back a bit in the S12 Pro.
 
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Jeromeof

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So, thanks again guys for the recommendations - I have been off watching lots of YouTube videos and looking at allot (a crazy amount really) of FR comparison charts of various squig.link to basically try and apply a mostly scientific approach (but taking into account certain highly rated reviews subjective / objective opinions). This lead me down a whole series of thought processes over the last few days, but I would like to share what I am currently thinking.

Obviously still looking for a neutral with a little bass boost (not too much - based on what I have currently I would like something similar in volume to the Salnotes Zero or the ER2XR) but not too boosted. I also mostly hate sibilance and given I plan on using these IEM's on long walks / hikes I want something relatively easy to listen for long periods that will be comfortable, I have very large ears and getting a good fit has always been a problem with IEM's though since I got the ER2XR I have bought a bunch of triple flange tips which mostly work great on my other IEM's, though obviously change the sound compared to the graphs. This was a little bit of a dilemma especially understanding that the charts I am using may not be that accurate to what I will hear with the triple flange. That said I decided to still focus on the scientific comparison approach.

My price range is basically $200-$300 range (which sadly excludes the Blessing 2: Dusk) and other highly recommended IEMs. Specifically, I decided to get a comparison chart of the various IEM's I have gotten various for (and ones that are highly rated by particularly YouTubers - though I only really take the opinions of Crinacle and the guys from the Headphone Show (Resolve / Precog etc) as they do heavily use measurements for their opinions.

As for the purchase - I have slightly limited choices (I don't trust AliExpress or eBay) so really for me its amazon.co.uk or LinSoul - to make it easier to narrow things down I deciced to use the filtering on Linsoul (and will probably buy from them anyway as I bought a few IEM's from them already).

So firstly the set of references that I am targeting getting something which will be similar too:
graph.png


I had lots and lots of other ones but these seems to be well reviewed and also recommended by various people including @Blorg - so I decided to look very carefully at the various aspects of these charts and compare with my preference and just taking one of these and adding in some of my current IEM's specifically to compare the Bass response I feel a slightly less sub-bass would be my preference:

graph-2.png

I really like the level of bass I get from the ER2XR (I would be hoping maybe bass clarity would improve by spending > $200 ) I had played with EQ on all my current IEM's and possible because of the triple flange its possibly increasing the bass I actually hear) so I found myself lowering the bass a little anyway. So for me something with slightly less bass would be preferable (but obviously everyone is different) - the target curve I picked from these comparison was the precognition one ( I did like the reviews done by the Headphones Show team so I guess this is their recommended curve no too different)- but as far as bass its similar to harman - so effectively I feel I like something between neutral and harman. But obviously I can and possible will tweak things a little with EQ.

So then looking at the treble end I do feel occasionally that the ER2XR has a little too much treble - hence one of the reasons I am looking for this next upgrade and I can see I the chart its emphasises the treble a little around 11K - so I think would look for something with a more even in that area. Though my 50 year old ears are not hearing much beyond 14K/15K these days. This is where I believe its all very subjective based on each persons own ears (and maybe the newer measurement rigs will provide very different results) - but basing this decision on what I have available now is the most sensible option.

So hopefully this process has allowed me to get to more easily judge and find an IEM that I will like. It's now time to look at what I can get in Ireland. So sadly I can't seem to get the Aful Performer at all either via LinSoul or Amazon.co.uk so a simple filter on linsoul gives me the following candidates:
1678015245047.png

Link here with the filters applied.

Going through all options for some have no reviews or at least no FR that I can compare easiily via squig.link - but the ones I can compare I added to this very messy chart with the Blessing 2 and the U12t (as good references for comparisons) - obviously the Blessing 2 is one ideal reference but since 2 of the main guys on the headphone show both recommend the tuning of the U12t I thought that would be an ideal other tuning for comparisons.
graph-3.png

This this I decided to quickly remove some headphones with outlying charasterics - specifically ones I thought would be too sibilant. So this tidied up the candidates to the following:
graph-4.png

So the Kiwi Ears and the ThieAudio Elixir (and I would also add the ThieAudio Presitge ) but I couldn't get them all on a same graph with the Blessing but I did find a way of comparing the 3 with the Truthear Zero as follows:

graph-6.png

Link here

So finally I think I am almost ready to pull the trigger, but will wait and see if anyone has any opinion on these 3 options which are in the right price range and I believe have the right sound profile (hopefully based on some scientific comparisons).

IMO at the moment the Kiwi Ears is probably my favourite option of the 3 - not sure I like the look of the Elixir response and even the prestige might be a little too treble focused for me.

So I am posting this as I thought it was an interesting (though time consuming) process which hopefully makes sense to other people looking at spending a bit more but roughly know the sound they like based on the cheaper options (The Zero's and Chu etc) and what EQ if any, they have applied already to those.

But all opinions are welcome. I am planning on buying something earlier next week and I will post a follow up in a few weeks with my opinions of the result and how it compares to what I already have. Hopefully confirming this scientific approach works when selecting IEM's.
 
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Klonatans

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Fiio FH7. Outside your price range, though they are available for much lower price second hand in mint/very good condition. Mid-centric sound signature with a little LF boost. Might sound a tad bright, however a little EQ touch helps.
 
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Jeromeof

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Fiio FH7. Outside your price range, though they are available for much lower price second hand in mint/very good condition. Mid-centric sound signature with a little LF boost. Might sound a tad bright, however a little EQ touch helps.
I had the FH5 in the short list but removed them as the treble was an outlier - but the FH7 does look good but a little over my budget:
graph-7.png
 

Blorg

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I have the ER2XR as well as the ER4XR and ER4SR, in general on the Etymotics, the bass on them does sound a bit more than they graph, I think due to the very deep insertion and the high isolation. So don't presume you don't want higher graphed bass based off the ER2XR and the graph.

If you genuinely did want less though, the OG Blessing 2 has less, although it's also warmer. I think the Dusk is better, but the OG B2 is also very good, and you can sometimes get this discounted which the Dusk almost never is. It's slightly brighter through the upper mids though.

If you can get over your phobia about AliExpress you'd have a lot more options, I don't know why you trust Linsoul but not well-established shops on AliExpress. Linsoul for that matter are on AliExpress themselves (DD Audio). I have spent thousands on AliExpress without issue. Other reputable Chinese stores who operate both on and off AliExpress include ShenzenAudio (who have exclusives such as the Dusk) and HifiGo.

I am somewhat sceptical that treble at 11kHz+ is going to be a big problem for you at 50+ with self-described high frequency loss. Also, the rigs just aren't reliable near or over the ~8kHz insertion resonance so you can't really reliably tell from a graph whether something is going to have a problematic peak up there. You can tell very broadly whether something has a ton of high treble or if it's very rolled off. But I wouldn't make decisions based on specific peaks over 8kHz, they can be very different in different measurements.

That spike at 11kHz on the graph of the ER2XR is an insertion resonance from the specific insertion on the measuring rig. It's conventionally located at 8kHz at the other stuff, although for most people it will be lower. Where (or even whether) it appears for you depends on insertion depth, you can check this with a tone generator. Generally, having it at 11kHz is much less audible and much less objectionable than having it at 8kHz, and most people won't even get deep enough to get it at 8kHz, for most, it's 6-7kHz. I get it at 7.5kHz on most regular IEMs. This graph is the ER4 with shallow (yellow) insertion and deep (green). I definitely don't get a sharp insertion resonance like you see on that graph, it's much more like this and the ER2XR actually sounds quite dark in the treble to me. It's very smooth though, with no large peaks. You can see though if you do a shallow insertion you will get a big treble peak, Etymotic is extremely sensitive to this.

cdpkorea-1255283977-1.jpg


Generally, problem sibilance is much lower down than that, it's usually really more the upper mids and lower treble. If you KNOW you have issues around 11kHz, fine, but just if you have this idea it's up there but it might not be. If you don't find the Truthear Zero bright, you are probably safe to get stuff with quite a bit in the upper mids region.

Precog target is basically the 64 Audio U12T, that is where is comes from. U12T is his favourite IEM, so that's the target. Just so you know, that's basically what you are comparing to with that target, one specific IEM. I'm not sure it is the most useful for comparison, even though the U12T is certainly well tuned, no IEM is entirely perfect taking a target directly from an IEM like that you capture idiosyncrasies of the IEM. I'm not sure the dip between 2kHz and 5kHz is ideal, specifically. It's in that target because it's in the U12T.

1678029295706.png

Fiio are often quite poorly tuned, they are a bit of a minefield. I don't think I'd personally pick either the FH7 or the FH7S at full price but do note, these are entirely different IEMs that are tuned radically differently, a recommendation for one is not for the other. To me, both of those look questionable, but in very different ways. If I had to pick one, the FH7 looks better than the FH7S. I have the FH5, what do you mean by the treble being an "outlier"? Too little, the way it's rolled off? It would be better if it wasn't so rolled off but I am not sure this is necessarily a dealbreaker either, particularly not if you are sensitive to too much up there.
1678031097223.png


ThieAudio Prestige looks like a possibility to me but it has an insane amount of high treble, if you are as sensitive about this as you think you are, it's a definite no. This isn't just going off the graph, reviewers have commented on this. For me I don't think it would be a dealbreaker, I do have high frequency hearing loss and I'm just not particularly sensitive to excess over 10kHz or so. It has similar high treble levels to the KZ PR1 Pro and the Moondrop Stellaris, both of which I have/had and both of which were very bright, but which I found tolerable. I think this may come down though to whether you actually are as sensitive to stuff up there as you think you are, check it with a tone generator. It's also $1,299, if you are open to spending that much, I think I'd get the ThieAudio Monarch Mk2 which is a safer bet (the $149 in your screenshot is only for the cable).
 
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Jeromeof

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I have the ER2XR as well as the ER4XR and ER4SR, in general on the Etymotics, the bass on them does sound a bit more than they graph, I think due to the very deep insertion and the high isolation. So don't presume you don't want higher graphed bass based off the ER2XR and the graph.

If you genuinely did want less though, the OG Blessing 2 has less, although it's also warmer. I think the Dusk is better, but the OG B2 is also very good, and you can sometimes get this discounted which the Dusk almost never is. It's slightly brighter through the upper mids though.

If you can get over your phobia about AliExpress you'd have a lot more options, I don't know why you trust Linsoul but not well-established shops on AliExpress. Linsoul for that matter are on AliExpress themselves (DD Audio). I have spent thousands on AliExpress without issue. Other reputable Chinese stores who operate both on and off AliExpress include ShenzenAudio (who have exclusives such as the Dusk) and HifiGo.
Cool, thanks for these extra recommendations. As to AliExpress, due to some bad choices by me previously with AliExpress (where I bought from a similar sounding but 'cheaper' store) and ended up with something that was a fake, I would only use AliExpress for something like ear tips but I will check out some other stores you mentioned beyond the ones I had previously mentioned.

I agree that the ER2XR probably does sound more bassy IRL than it graphs, but I did find with the other IEMs that I have currently only with a triple flange and a fairly deep insert would I get a good seal and nice bass, so I was more thinking that I would probably use a triple flange again with whatever option I choose, so I would probably get a bass boost anyway, so something similar to the ER2 would probably be right for me.

As for the treble, I just want to be a little bit careful - though obviously I will use a bit of EQ if required. But I typically use an iPhone (with an apple dongle), so mostly I would like something that isn't offensive (to me) without EQ - though for music I would typically use some EQ but for audiobooks / podcasts I would not have access to EQ (no system wide EQ on an iPhone) and I did find some audiobooks especially with particular female narrators sounding a little sibilant √√ttr. And I know I should buy a Qudelix :D

Thanks again, some more research needed tonight.
 

markanini

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Precog target is basically the 64 Audio U12T, that is where is comes from. U12T is his favourite IEM, so that's the target.
64 Audio makes IEMs for musicians BTW, consider them desinged for high SPL monitoring of stage mics, which are usually boosted in mids and treble, especially 3kHz.
Nevertheless many popular sets follow Precogvisons target below 1kHz, including Moondrop Aria "The Honda Accord of IEMs", it's also Oratory1990 target below 1KHz basically.
1678038103719.png

 

Blorg

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@Jeromeof the thing with AliExpress, it's just a marketplace. You need to choose reputable stores. If you choose a well established store that has been on there for years with plenty of good feedback, it's no more risk than anywhere else. Like, buying from Linsoul you are buying from Linsoul, get the thing shipped by Linsoul from China. Buying from DD Audio (Linsoul) on Ali, you are buying from Linsoul, thing is shipped by Linsoul from China... exactly the same. The only difference is you can use Ali site coupons and have the additional site protection that Ali provides. It's the same shop behind it. Same thing with Shenzhen Audio or Hifigo who are also on Ali. While some of the manufacturers like Moondrop have their own official stores on AliExpress, and I have bought many IEMs from them too. Buying from "Shop912091019 Store" with zero feedback is a different matter and I don't advise that.

You shouldn't need to use a triple flange with regular IEMs and regular IEMs are not designed for that, I can't imagine you are getting the best sound doing that. Etymotic are designed for that and the IEM goes quite a way into the triple flange and the whole thing way into your ear. Conversely, a regular IEM is not designed for that. You may be actually elongating the distance between the driver and your eardrum which will lower the insertion resonance and make them a lot sharper in that lower treble region. Check and find on a tone generator. You should be able to get decent seal and bass with more regular tips, it can certainly take a bit of swapping but you should be able to get there. Deep insert is a good idea in general, I'm just not sure triple flange is going to work great with the non-Etymotics, and it certainly shouldn't be necessary for a seal. Are you getting the actual body of the IEM pressed right up against your concha? If you are, that's a good deep fit.
 
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Jeromeof

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@Jeromeof the thing with AliExpress, it's just a marketplace. You need to choose reputable stores. If you choose a well established store that has been on there for years with plenty of good feedback, it's no more risk than anywhere else. Like, buying from Linsoul you are buying from Linsoul, get the thing shipped by Linsoul from China. Buying from DD Audio (Linsoul) on Ali, you are buying from Linsoul, thing is shipped by Linsoul from China... exactly the same. The only difference is you can use Ali site coupons and have the additional site protection that Ali provides. It's the same shop behind it. Same thing with Shenzhen Audio or Hifigo who are also on Ali. While some of the manufacturers like Moondrop have their own official stores on AliExpress, and I have bought many IEMs from them too. Buying from "Shop912091019 Store" with zero feedback is a different matter and I don't advise that.
I know aliexpress well - but for me the shopping and especially the filtering experience is very poor, even with individual stores on Aliexpress. I did check out Linsoul, Shenzhen Audio and now also hifigo stores both on AliExpress and comparing the experience to going directly its very poor especially when I want to see and filter a selection of devices by various attributes and price ranges. There is also the 'confusion' of whether VAT import duty is paid and by whom EU VAT imports I had found it much clearer when dealing directly as to what the actual cost will be, specifically there is often a separate handling fee coming into Ireland depending on how the VAT is declared. But with the final selection I will definitely check out the price on some reputable stores on aliexpress before buying, it just I found linsoul especially a nicer experience with taking a large selection and filtering it down to a manageable list. Anyway, by checking out those other stores, I have added a few more candidates, so thanks.
You shouldn't need to use a triple flange with regular IEMs and regular IEMs are not designed for that, I can't imagine you are getting the best sound doing that. Etymotic are designed for that and the IEM goes quite a way into the triple flange and the whole thing way into your ear. Conversely, a regular IEM is not designed for that. You may be actually elongating the distance between the driver and your eardrum which will lower the insertion resonance and make them a lot sharper in that lower treble region. Check and find on a tone generator. You should be able to get decent seal and bass with more regular tips, it can certainly take a bit of swapping but you should be able to get there. Deep insert is a good idea in general, I'm just not sure triple flange is going to work great with the non-Etymotics, and it certainly shouldn't be necessary for a seal. Are you getting the actual body of the IEM pressed right up against your concha? If you are, that's a good deep fit.
I did mostly agree with your opinion here (and completely kept away from triple flange for as long as possible), but I have spent maybe $200 + on various tips from both the big brands like spinfits / comply and from lots of aliexpress stores over the past 5 years, e.g. I never got a "good seal" with the AirPods Pro "test" or the basic tone testing app. I had tried so many tips (I probably have close to 100 sets of tips now of various shapes and sizes) - and then last year I made a big effect when the review of the Truthear Zero came out here to get and try more tips (to see could it match the ER2XR for an 'correct sounding IEM') and only with the triple flange (and partially with the Comply 'P' series foam) would I get the audio to sound correct IMO and I am well versed with testing my ears at various frequencies and volumes.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I am going to revise my short list during the week and see what I come up with
 

Blorg

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@Jeromeof The VAT situation is actually clearer on AliExpress now, in that they will collect it for items under €150 and there will be no further charge on arrival. So for that stuff, you KNOW the final price you pay is it and you won't have customs asking you for money to release the parcel, it actually also can speed up the delivery on the Ireland end as the package arrives with no tax due.

The other stores my understanding won't include it, and you may or may not get charged it. This may make it cheaper if customs miss the item, it may not though if they catch it as often apart from having to pay the tax, there is as you mention a handling fee on top- so in the situation where you actually do pay it, it's probably cheaper to pay it to Ali. If it's prepaid, there's no handling fee on arrival. I know what many Chinese sellers do is they underdeclare everything and depending on the specific EU country you live in, some of them, customs are militant and investigate everything, others a lot of stuff just gets through. I'm from Ireland originally myself and I know 15 years ago stuff in small packages declared as worth €5 would never be taxed. I don't know how it is now, I know some other EU countries though have got hardcore on this and very low chance of getting anything in without paying the tax on it.

This is all coming from the European Union side, not AliExpress, and Alibaba is being forced to do it because of its size, it's one of the largest e-commerce operations globally and it has an actual physical presence in Europe. Smaller operations like Linsoul, etc. who are entirely in China can get away with it- for now. You are still liable either way for the tax on import into Ireland, if you get away without paying it that's technically illegal... not saying you should go to the Revenue and declare it if it's missed, but this is the "why" behind it all, the whole rationale behind this is that foreign sellers should be competing on an equal basis with EU sellers- who have to charge VAT.

Stuff over €150, like most of the IEMs you are talking about here- AliExpress won't charge the VAT, and it still works the same, you pay on arrival if it's stopped. But this is going to be the exact same if you order from AliExpress or one of the other sites directly.

Fair enough with the tips, although that does seem pretty weird to me that nothing except triple flange worked. Might be worth figuring out where your insertion resonance is, as it it's extremely low that will affect the tonality of anything you buy and it will sound very different from how it graphs and how most people describe it. You may actually be getting a decent insertion though, if you do a sweep on a tone generator and the peak is anywhere from ~7kHz up, I think that's doing reasonably well. Generally, the higher the better.
 

6sigma

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Hi,
So I am looking at a little upgrade. Thanks to this forum I bought the Truthear Zero, the Moondrop Chu and the Salnotes Zero and (and a few others IEM's including Etymotics )
Of the ones you named, which would you choose over the others?
 
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Jeromeof

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Of the ones you named, which would you choose over the others?
Well of those 3 "cheap" options, It depends on how much you want to spend for a reasonable good harman target. For me personally, I thought the Moondrop Chu was amazing for the price at $20, the Salnotes were almost as good also at about $20 (slightly cheap feel about them IMO) and the Truthear Zero was maybe marginally better but at $50. I used a little EQ on all these but not much and I probably liked the Moondrop Chu the best ( though this is almost certainly because it fit me slightly better than the others), it was hard for me to keep a good seal with the Truthear's so was a bit frustrating at times.

But I would say the Etymotics ER2XR I have at about $80 is considerable better than any of those, easily worth the little bit over the Truthear (which would probably be a controversial thing to say on this website :D ), but I think that is probably because I did like the deeper "fit" in my ears. I did try a bunch of others like the KBear Neon which I would not rate at all.
 
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